The Dudeism Forum

QuoteAm I wrong, or just an asshole?

You're being an asshole to be fair DB

This is not the movie. This is a forum where someone is expressing blatant racism. and you are now not only tolerating it but making up excuses.

Oliver has also come out with the most banal fucking statement I've ever come across! Tolerate intolerance! What the fuck is that about!?

Nah. Not convinced and seriously not happy.

Righteous Dude has officially de ordained. Anyone wishing to leave is welcome. They can even go start their own Dudeist church and fill it with whatever information they like.

Sorry if you think that my statement was banal, Caesar. It seems to me you're taking a knee-jerk response.

I hate to see people get worked up over semantics. It's one of the most annoying things about human communication. Words are not hard objects and can have many shades of meaning.

When I say we should tolerate intolerance I only mean that we should allow certain degrees of it on the forum so that it can engender conversation. And beating someone down with anger and emotion instead of trying first to reason with them is a form of intolerance itself. (I'm sure some would think that a "banal" statement as well.) It's only when people refuse to play by the rules of discourse and rhetoric (trying to "win" over trying to synthesize or illuminate) that we should refuse to tolerate it because then it becomes a question of intellectual territory and will. That's not what we're here for.

Dudeism stands for reason over emotion. It also stands for skepticism over idealism. It stands for a lot of things. Those that don't "get it" are welcome to leave. No hard feelings. To be honest I've felt that a certain amount of unwelcome aggression and extremism has taken over the forum lately. I scolded Righteous Dude recently for being too aggressive. Maybe this just wasn't the right place for him. And that's cool. That's cool.

Caesar, just saw your "two words" to Abideist. Very classy.

Pot calling the kettle un-Dude? Come on, man. The guy went and (sort of) apologized and you come back with that?

I really don't get people sometimes. Oh well. Maybe I should de-ordain as well.

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on May 06, 2013, 01:18:38 AM
Just a thought; it is possible that some dudes feel a bit free to bash Muslims here in the forum because there is some Muslim (or perhaps Arab) bashing in the Big Lebowski; that is to say Walter calling them "camel fuckers...a bunch of fig-eaters with towels on their heads tryin' to find reverse on a Soviet tank. This is not a worthy--"

It has to be remembered the Coen brothers are Jewish and might be perhaps taking some liberty in their movie to subtlety take a shot or two at Arabs and Muslims. But, having said that; they also take a shot or two at their own culture and religion by making the somewhat wacko Walter, a fanatical Jewish convert from Catholicism, rant and rave about "Shomer fucking Shabbos!"and his comical quote "Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax," not to mention Walter's monologue about the Rambam while walking out to the Dude's burnt out car. This might be a reason that dudes feel a bit free to vent some anger and frustration over the doings of some members of Islam.

Am I wrong, or just an asshole?

IMHO

I think it's unfortunate that people use the towel head and camel fucker lines injudiciously. Same with "fucking Germans, fucking Nazis." People often don't realize the context and are offended. But I guess that's bound to happen. Vagina.

Let's take your reply one step at a time Forum Dude.

QuoteIt seems to me you're taking a knee-jerk response.

Not at all. I first posted my initial reaction to Abideist nearly two weeks ago. I've been waiting to see what reaction if any it would garner from yourself or the mods or indeed Abideist. I've had plenty of time to ponder.

Semantics you say? Well semantics is what the written word is about. We can't use body language or tone or inflection in the written word so forgive me if I've missed something but I don't think I've got the phrase

QuoteI'll try and justify that statement with the common knowledge that the majority of muslim groups do CURRENTLY in our Modern times, wish jihad and death on all non believers.

wrong. I don't think I've misunderstood a blatant piece of racist language, I don't think I've misconstrued an absolute statement for a generalisation. I think I can see when someone is calling a spade a spade or a nigger a nigger perchance?

QuoteWhen I say we should tolerate intolerance I only mean that we should allow certain degrees of it on the forum so that it can engender conversation.

I see where you are going with that but the opportunity for that conversation came and went...Abideist then compounded his beliefs. (and actually I think to degree that statement is pretty much bullshit anyhow. I mean where do you draw the line? How much hatred do you allow to be spouted before you actually take a stand against it?

If I was in a room with someone who spouted that nonsense then I would immediately take him to task and if that didn't work, walk away and never associate with him again! What is the difference here? If the person said that at work and it was reported I guarantee that HR would fire him on the spot!

QuoteDudeism stands for reason over emotion.

Really? So where's the reasoning behind allowing someone to pretend they are a dude and abiding yet knowing full they are neither being dude like or abideing and worse not allowing a whole race to abide?

As I said before. I'm not convinced and I'm not impressed. I do not think for a second that allowing bigotry, intolerance and hatred into dudeism (even it is for the purpose of engendering conversation) can be the right way forward.

As an aside: I note that the Pope today spoke out against child abuse and poverty, what was noticeable by it's absence was any apology or recognition for his church's past efforts in this regards.

Are we to go the same way? Allow as many transgressions as you like as long as we discuss it and debate then we can hold those negative racist anti-isms and still call our selves dudes?

Quote from: Caesar dude on May 06, 2013, 12:43:54 AM
Well I'm calling it!

I don't like it. I don't think it's appropriate and I don't think it's at all dudeist.

If someone started spouting racist hatred such as " that the majority of black people fuck monkeys. Or "It is common knowledge that the majority of Jews should be burned because they eat babies" or " It is common knowledge that the majority of Scottish people would sell their families into slavery"

Would that be Tolerated!??

I've never talked about banning anyone! I have never indicated that! I am asking for clarification on what is and what is not considered "Dudeist"

I'm saying that I cannot and will not associate myself with a religion that wishes peace and harmony but has an "anything goes policy".

I guess what you are saying is paedophiles, despots and serial killers can all be dudes as long as they don't rock the boat too much and we give them space?

Caesar, maybe you thought I was replying to this post, which I didn't see. No, Dudeism doesn't want support assholiosity, obviously. I thought you were referring to the forum (which is why I brought up the issue of banning), which is open and should not be censored unless people become truly disruptive.

Dudeism doesn't have an "anything goes" policy. But it does have a policy not to be too hasty to judge or too unforgiving or self-righteous or aggressive. I don't like what Abideist had to say and I think he hasn't really thought through his point of view or perhaps doesn't have much experience with muslims. But I appreciated that most people on the forum seemed willing to engage him in dialogue. And I think that he learned something from it.

Quote from: Caesar dude on May 06, 2013, 02:20:18 AM
Let's take your reply one step at a time Forum Dude.

QuoteIt seems to me you're taking a knee-jerk response.

Not at all. I first posted my initial reaction to Abideist nearly two weeks ago. I've been waiting to see what reaction if any it would garner from yourself or the mods or indeed Abideist. I've had plenty of time to ponder.

Semantics you say? Well semantics is what the written word is about. We can't use body language or tone or inflection in the written word so forgive me if I've missed something but I don't think I've got the phrase

QuoteI'll try and justify that statement with the common knowledge that the majority of muslim groups do CURRENTLY in our Modern times, wish jihad and death on all non believers.

wrong. I don't think I've misunderstood a blatant piece of racist language, I don't think I've misconstrued an absolute statement for a generalisation. I think I can see when someone is calling a spade a spade or a nigger a nigger perchance?

QuoteWhen I say we should tolerate intolerance I only mean that we should allow certain degrees of it on the forum so that it can engender conversation.

I see where you are going with that but the opportunity for that conversation came and went...Abideist then compounded his beliefs. (and actually I think to degree that statement is pretty much bullshit anyhow. I mean where do you draw the line? How much hatred do you allow to be spouted before you actually take a stand against it?

If I was in a room with someone who spouted that nonsense then I would immediately take him to task and if that didn't work, walk away and never associate with him again! What is the difference here? If the person said that at work and it was reported I guarantee that HR would fire him on the spot!

QuoteDudeism stands for reason over emotion.

Really? So where's the reasoning behind allowing someone to pretend they are a dude and abiding yet knowing full they are neither being dude like or abideing and worse not allowing a whole race to abide?

As I said before. I'm not convinced and I'm not impressed. I do not think for a second that allowing bigotry, intolerance and hatred into dudeism (even it is for the purpose of engendering conversation) can be the right way forward.

As an aside: I note that the Pope today spoke out against child abuse and poverty, what was noticeable by it's absence was any apology or recognition for his church's past efforts in this regards.

Are we to go the same way? Allow as many transgressions as you like as long as we discuss it and debate then we can hold those negative racist anti-isms and still call our selves dudes?

I find that word "racism" so tiresome and hollow. Abideist isn't necessarily racist. He's just wrong, misinformed, brainwashed by the US media, etc. (my opinion, Abideist. I just think you haven't investigated the issue thoroughly)

When we bring down the hammer word of "racism" we're just being racist against racists. You're basically saying this guy is such a piece of shit that he doesn't deserve our patience.

Nowadays most racists aren't "racist" in the sense that they used to be (in slave-era US or colonial-era UK, for instance). Everyone knows that people are equal in potential. When people make blanket statements about other people these days they're making generalizations about their culture. And we should be allowed to do that, provided we have the facts straight. Otherwise how can we criticize fanatical extremists? Are we being "racist" to Al Qaida by saying they want to kill us? Maybe some of them don't, just want the US out of Palestine. Surely we shouldn't paint them with the same brush! Or are we being "racist" when we say that U.S. Evangelicals are ignorant of the basic principles of science? Surely there are many born again physicists who know that the world could not possibly be created in seven days and Jesusy biologists who know that there is a good chance that evolution is correct. We shouldn't lump them all together! Right?

The point is that generalizations are a pain in the ass, but they can sometimes be true but it's easy to be wrong about them. That doesn't mean someone is racist, only that they might be intellectually lazy or misled when confronted by a teeming mass of information that is hard to sift through

That charge of "racism" is useless. Attack someone on their principles, their arguments, their reasoning. Saying fuck you to them achieves nothing.

Your riposte to my statement about "reason" made no sense at all to me. If someone is undude then it's a failure of their reason and we should use reason to reason with them, reasonably. People can be unreasonable without realizing it. That's what community is for, and what a disciplined mind is for. To straighten out the kinks.

Again, this may have been a misunderstanding perpetrated in no small part by me thinking you were referring to what is allowed in the forum when you meant what is considered "Dudeist." To reiterate - Dudeism is in no way supportive of making incorrect generalizations about a group of people in an aggressive way. What was primarily unDude about his statement was that it was aggressive. Just as what was undude in your telling him "fuck you" after he (sort of) apologized.

You say that Abideist is just misinformed: Did you read this:

Quote

Quote from: Caesar dude on April 24, 2013, 10:43:15 AM

QuotePersonally, and I may be shunned by my fellow dudes for saying this, but FUCK muslims

That is not a very dudeist way to go through life!

I know several Muslims with a far more tolerant attitude than you are displaying! If it were up to you then I assume that any Muslim dudes here would be banned!

QuoteBritain is facing that challenge now

Only if you read the daily mail! A couple of examples. Where I live there is a Muslim community made up of Muslims form various nationalities. They integrate well here and don't preach hate or incite violence! In Edinburgh where my sister lives there is a central Mosque which has an attached restaurant which only opens for lunch and serves typical ethnic fare. It's basic, ie. you pay £4.00 and are given a big bowl of whatever is being served that day along with some Arabic bread. The place is packed out everyday with mainly non Muslims! No sign of radicalisation there either!

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g186525-d1023923-Reviews-The_Mosque_Kitchen-Edinburgh_Scotland.html

Quoteislam does pose a threat to freedom, democracy, security and human rights.

No more or less than Catholicism does! Africa for instance, where the religion is spreading along with AIDS because of the Churches refusal to back down on condoms. The IRA. And any untold number of atrocities carried out in the name of the Christian God over the last several hundred years.

Only a tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists and support violence. Yes I'm sure that they would like to convert everyone on the planet to their way of thinking...but then again so would the pope!!

As I said previously. To "hate" all Muslims is very very undude. For all means condemn the murderers and those that support violence but at least condemn all those of whatever nationality and religion that do the same.

Peace.

I did my best to inform him or at least try and get him to understand a different viewpoint. He came out with what I could never ever construe as something to try and make things better. Hence My "fuck you" statment. Born of frustration more than anything else!

I have a no time been discussing the forum or forum rules or banning people or warnings etc. So I don't quite know where that is coming from.

I am trying to get to grips with a Dude who reckons he abides but clearly doesn't because he has so much hatred within him.

You may not like the word racism and yes I do understand where you're coming from with it. However sometimes the cap fits.

 

I may have missed some of the stuff Abideist posted - I skimmed over the thread. But to suggest that Islamic immigrants and European traditionalists are living in harmony is a bit disingenuous.

There is a clash of culture occurring all over the continent which causes some friction (the chador, women's rights, not learning the language, abuse of social services) - and not just with Islam but with Eastern European immigrants as well. It's bound to happen. Eventually it will get ironed out. And then there will be new conflicts. This shit has been going on since the dawn of civilization.

I'm a fan of Sam Harris, but I can see how his ideas about Islam can be inflammatory. Still, they're not racist. We should be allowed to discuss things like this without being considered racist. It's no different than hippies and rednecks clashing during marches on Washington or backpackers taking up all the free tables at London Starbucks or chavs playing their music too loud on boomboxes next to a church. Just a question of scale.

Still, I do see that you were extremely patient with Abideist up to a point. And Dudos for that. Man, these extra long threads can be hard to navigate if you come late to the party.

Quote from: forumdude on May 06, 2013, 02:07:18 AM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on May 06, 2013, 01:18:38 AM
Just a thought; it is possible that some dudes feel a bit free to bash Muslims here in the forum because there is some Muslim (or perhaps Arab) bashing in the Big Lebowski; that is to say Walter calling them "camel fuckers...a bunch of fig-eaters with towels on their heads tryin' to find reverse on a Soviet tank. This is not a worthy--"

It has to be remembered the Coen brothers are Jewish and might be perhaps taking some liberty in their movie to subtlety take a shot or two at Arabs and Muslims. But, having said that; they also take a shot or two at their own culture and religion by making the somewhat wacko Walter, a fanatical Jewish convert from Catholicism, rant and rave about "Shomer fucking Shabbos!"and his comical quote "Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax," not to mention Walter's monologue about the Rambam while walking out to the Dude's burnt out car. This might be a reason that dudes feel a bit free to vent some anger and frustration over the doings of some members of Islam.

Am I wrong, or just an asshole?

IMHO

I think it's unfortunate that people use the towel head and camel fucker lines injudiciously. Same with "fucking Germans, fucking Nazis." People often don't realize the context and are offended. But I guess that's bound to happen. Vagina.

I agree, and would add...hey dudes, its only a movie, a great one, but a movie none the less. Lets keep a firm grip on reality and do some clear thinking as Dudists.

I'm not suggesting that everything his peace and harmony far from it. I am saying that it's not as bad as the daily mail would have it!

And not that bad in my personal experience.

I'm still a bit wary of Irish folks ffs! That's because of years of conditioning and having to be alert in pubs. But I don't HATE them!

You're a farang living in Thailand. How are those cultural differences going? The abject poverty of some of the Thais compared to your comparative wealth? ALL Thais must hate you for that! That is disingenuous! But nonsense, of course they don't but some will for sure.

I'll agree to disagree then and call Abideist "uninformed" That's ok as long as he willing to become a little more enlightened and at least concede that perhaps some of the Muslims that he detests wish him no ill will.

I still feel that statements like he made have no place coming from a dude's mouth/pen/keyboard!

Peace

Pizza be upon you, Caesar Dude.

QuotePizza be upon you, Caesar Dude.

Damned good idea Oliver! Domino's will deliver within 30 minutes I believe! (probably some Muslim dude on a bike!)

Take it easy dude.