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Author Topic: what is abiding?  (Read 85660 times)

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Andrea Da Fino

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2011, 01:23:22 AM »
Actually Dudeism is already a different thing from TBL, as DL has said a lot of times. The Dude is just a good, and well known, example of the Dudest attitude to life, which is not being a stoner but taking 'er easy and trying to be always calmer than you are. But, but, just like with the three core principles of Dudeism, Jeffrey Lebowski has been the spark which lighted Dudeism so it will always be a part of Dudeism too. Not to be confused with a kind of JCD clone. We don't need it and we won't have it. Can you imagine what would the Dudely Llama say about this happening? Probably something like: You have a pretty wrong frame of reference. And the Dude would just put his sunglasses on and leave the room.

Only a portion of Lebowski fans become Dudeist and only a part of them become Dudeist Priests, that's the way it goes.

As meekon pointed out, with reference to water which is the best example of Taoism and Dudeism attitude, stagnation means death, and stinks. Probably there isn't the need for more doctrine, but there is for a more clear "definition" of what Dudeism is. Otherwise this topic wouldn't have seen the light. That is some misunderstand what Dudeism is. And sometimes it could be good for every Priest to have another look down there to what Dudeism is.

As for me the only thing I'll add to, at least for now, the three basic teachings or whathaveyou of Dudeism would be a compulsory seriously silly attitude. But a couple of sentences more about respect or other things do not add any doctrine, just help to keep waters clearer.

Anyway let me cite something from two of the wisest men on Earth.  8)


ArchDudeship from I can get you a Vow article on the Dudespaper:

To just take it easy, man
To spread the dude word when it?s not too exhausting
To always make time to have some burgers, some beers, a few laughs
To check in to see what condition my condition is in
To not treat objects like women, man
To uh?lost my train of thought there
To keep my mind limber
To enjoy natural, zesty enterprises while fixing the cable
To never repeat what a stranger on the phone tells me to say
And always, in a world gone crazy, to abide


Oliver Benjamin from the article on cnngo.com:


"Following Dudeism helps you to keep in mind what's important in life, what actually makes people happy instead of what makes them insane."

"One problem also is that too many people just think the Dude is a burned out hedonistic stoner. Nothing could be further from the truth. He's an intellectual with strong moral character and a lively, creative mind.

"He's also a stoner, but that's not a bad thing. Too many people confuse Dudeism with anarchism or selfish laziness. Dudeism recognizes the need for organization and rules, and the laziness it touts is disciplined and determined."

F***ng interesting and fabulous stuff right?  8)
IMDO: Always In My Dudely Opinion, dude. And, dude, let's not forget that sometimes I'm a f***ing moron.

See Dudeism in Italy at http://www.dudeismo.org

meekon5

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2011, 06:14:46 AM »
I'd imagine, though, that just as the historical base of Dudeism, standing as it does on Lebowski-the-Younger, is in some manner inextricably entwined with the thesbian exploits of Mr. Bridges,...

Have to disagree with this assumption.

Mr Bridges is merely attempting to portray the characterisation (written by the Coen brothers) of the real Dude Jeff Dowd (who they based the character on).

We take example from the film version as the real life version is little documented. Again I have to bring up the idea of the finger and the moon parable.

Live your life like the Dude don't try to become the Dude.

(Oh and be careful with those polysyllabics you could cut yourself on them).
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

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Andrea Da Fino

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2011, 01:20:27 PM »
"Live your life like the Dude don't try to become the Dude."

If I understand it correctly this is fucking ingenious. Am I wrong?  :)
IMDO: Always In My Dudely Opinion, dude. And, dude, let's not forget that sometimes I'm a f***ing moron.

See Dudeism in Italy at http://www.dudeismo.org

Rev. Ed C

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2011, 02:25:38 PM »
Live your life like the Dude don't try to become the Dude.

This is a point we can't stress enough.  I've been making this for weeks, but there seems a lot of resistance to the idea.  Draw influence, no not imitate.

As The Dude imitates no one, to imitate The Dude is impossible!  It's a pure paradox.

Even The Abide Guide throws us the this concept in full glory:

Quote
[Bruce] Lee said: "Always be yourself, express yourself, have faith in yourself, do not go out and look for a successful personality and duplicate it."
Never one for pretense, the Dude was always at ease with himself and had obviously spent much of his life avoiding the square community's ideas of success.

The notion that trying to imitate The Dude is a deadened.  Trying to be yourself in the same spiritual sense as The Dude works fine, but you might as well pick any admirable dudely figure to follow if that's the case.  I think I share more in common with a man like Bill Bailey than I ever could with The Dude, but once again, to draw influence from is key, not pure imitation.

To imitate instead of drawing influence is akin to Buddhists reading the scriptures for ways to seek enlightenment.  If Siddhartha did not read from a scripture to become enlightened, how will that help you??  Draw influence from him, do not follow his every word, that's not why he's telling you all that... you've mythed the point! :)

As always, glad to have you onside for this one Meekon, and Andrea :D
Large chunks of my Dudeist philosophies can be found in my Dudespaper column @
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Rev. Ed C

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2011, 02:57:57 PM »
In fact... to address my point further...

A high level of incorporation of The Dude is more akin to dogma and iconography that fits in with the sort of religious practices that Dudeism was founded to be an alternative to.

Things like The Dude's Prayer and some examples of wedding ceremony scripts, 'baptism' practises, the shrine to Maude on the website and other such stuff that include a lot of pointless Lebowski parody forced in with Christian (and almost only Christian) parody is keeping Dudeism from being what its supposed to be.  A loose, eastern-philosophical style atheistic (without the inclusion of a god) / agnostic (still looking for answers) religion that centres on a belief in how life and the universe work and how best to live said life in said universe.

People seem to want to hold on to Lebowskiism as some sort of holy parody, which is pretty much akin to the poisonous bile that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster has running in its veins.

Once again, my point is we don't need to lose The Dude, we want to keep him, but we don't want him being a figurehead and an anchor to religious structure that we don't agree with.  We want him in there, as an equal, with the rest of the influential Dudely figures.

From this point of view, the Dudeism.com website is a bit confusing, because it claims to be the Religion of The Big Lebowski and be filled with a lot of TBL parody in its fake self-help books, it's rather meaningless Dude de Ching interpretation of the Tao and its shrine to Maud where you can "pray".  However, on the other hand, the great dudes in history page lists The Dude in the mix, not at the top of the page, and the What is Dudeism page doesn't mention The Dude or TBL at all.

So, some of the site, primarily the key explanation of what Dudeism is, tells us that we don't need Lebowski for anything but it's nice to have him on board.  But then, the rest of the site, including the banner at the top of the browser window seem to say it's all about a Lebowskiist parody of Christianity.

So far, mixed messages have formed, and I think what we're doing here is trying to hammer them out and create a sense that Dudeism has more meaning to it, without making it all about some serious doctrinal organisation.  We want it to be a flowing, evolving thing that's not anchored by one heavy albatross :)
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Hominid

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2011, 10:57:34 PM »
I vote this thread "The Best Fucking Forum Conversation To Date". Rev, Andrea, Meekon - Y'all get awards for helping define and galvanize what all this abidin' is about. I'm thuroughly impressed. But this simple dude does have some thoughts:

The effort to differentiate between a religion and a belief system goes beyond (what I think) is the intent of being a Dudeist priest, as I don't think (...correct me if I missed something), the Dudely Lama envisioned such hair splitting. I see it all as a lark; something to harpoon real religions (Christian or not), placing " abiding" at the core; using an ethos to replace dogma. Those wanting to separate the two are taking it seriously beyond the founder's goal and vision, which is my interpretation of the whole Dudeism thing. To me, taking it further and SERIOUSLY being a dudeist priest, hanging a shingle identifying oneself as such, going full boat... Personally, who would take you seriously as a philosopher, stating your values are based on those of a character of a movie. Ya, OK, there's people who claim to be Jedi, but who doesn't smirk behind their backs?  Having a core set of values that may PARALLEL those of a pop culture icon is the fodder for doctorates, not the other way around.

Ooh, I like being a shit disturber. Homemade wine does that.

Or am I right? Am I trying to combine too many threads? It seems some are trying to find a place to hang their hat philosophically, which is cool.  "Abiding", IMHO should not have a label. Being ordained as a Dudeist priest is pure entertainment. Nothing more.

Quoting lines from TBL is fun, dudefests are fun, abiding is important. I guess though, I'm just not getting the effort put into trying to succinctly separate all these threads... I guess I'm just a simple dude trying to keep his rug clean.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 11:42:56 PM by Hominid »



Hominid

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2011, 12:43:15 AM »
Follow up post, which I think is very dudely:

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."

Steve Jobs



apnp

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2011, 01:20:05 AM »
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.

Personas hook us into emulating what we approvingly perceive, but we're left to act upon only our own reflection... or is that too Shinto?

Anyhow, what I am abided most by, thusfar, in my admittedly nascent Dudeist sojourn, is the humour of the play... I would hope, at least, that it is appropriate to suppose that any Abidism which disdains The Dude (I can't yet speak of The Dowd) is simply unabideable.  We're not supposing a mission to include everyone, are we?  Inclusion is a nebulous concern, ...but that's like just my opinion... ;)

p.s.  please feel free to include me as you will... as you will...  :-*
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 01:23:13 AM by apnp »
Okay, Dude, have it your way.

Andrea Da Fino

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2011, 02:38:16 AM »
Thanks Rev. Ed, this modest task we have self appointed upon ourselves can help clarify our idea of Dudeism, or just make things a mess, well, we'll see where this trail goes. Don't know if it's correct english but I hope you get the point. As someone else said we are a bunch of friends talking at the pub.  8)

As for the Christian like things, Catholic actually, anyway, I stick to the idea that Dudeism is trans-religious and trans-philosophic; that is it's over them and not specific. You can keep your previous religion and still be a dude if you behave in a dude way. Dudeism encompasses everything which is dude, as the western counterpart of Taoism. Let me make a comparison with JCD Golden Rule, it's not actually a feature of RC (Real Christianity) but an idea present in many religions and cultures. Dudeism is not really atheistic otherwise we couldn't be a home for religious people, as we are. The position about God is that we are not interested in this as his existance cannot be proved, or disproved, so it doesn't really matter. What matters is if you live a dudely life, which send us to understand what a dudely life is. A good example though is Rev. Shawna Lee lines from her article on the Dudespaper: http://dudespaper.com/loosening-my-train-of-thought.html

"Dudeism is based on the ancient Taoism, a philosophy full of wisdom, humor, connection with the natural world, and respect for all creatures, then filtered through a hilarious and wonderfully crafted modern movie. The followers tend to be smart but kind, funny but not disrespectful, and just not weird. Seriously, what?s not to like?"

Is she wrong?

I see your point on the parody thing. But given that we are from the West, most of, it's pretty natural that the first example which comes to our mind is a comparison with Catholicism.
And given that in this world we live in people needs ceremonies if we want to be Revs we have to have ceremonies, also, it's a legal thing and that's how this world is organized. I think we just have to find our personal style, but we need to begin somewhere.

Then, you're right, The Dude must not become a dogma, he's just a good example of what a dude is. But I find pretty interesting that some who hate dogma or doctrine are very interested in having The Dude as the sacred icon of Dudeism, pretty interesting uh? Sorry for the repetitions.

Anyway Dudeism, given its philosophy and ideas or whathaveyou, can be joined by people, like I was, who have never seen TBL, and this is the really cool thing of our beloved religion. Plus that they could even never see the movie and still be the greatest dudes of all time. Again, isn't it cool? Mr. Benjamin is a f****ng genius.


Hominid, thanks for the vote up.  8)

Obviously your thoughts are welcomed and appreciated dude. Actually the effort to differentiate religion and belief system or spiritual philosophy is not only beyond the intent of being a Dudeist Priest but useles as what we call here in the West religion is called belief system or philosophy in the East. We are talking about the same thing with different words. Only that philosophy is the only word which doesn't make anyone uncomfortable; religion and belief to some are far worse than vagina.  :o

"Something to harpoon real religions (Christian or not), placing " abiding" at the core; using an ethos to replace dogma."

This is a good point. As well as homebrewing wine, but let me add a couple of points: Dudeism isn't based on TBL, I know it seems to but Dudeism takes from The Big Lebowski the attitude to life of The Dude, not the fact that he smokes pot, not that he's unemployed, not that he drinks and smokes while driving, etc. But that he just takes her easy abiding and not being uptight. That's it. Obviously TBL works as a bridge between TBL and Dudeism, I mean when you say "I'm a Dudeist" many people would just say "WTF are you talking about?" while if you say "I follow the path of The Dude of TBL" they would probably say something like "I see, is it cool?" TBL is better known than Dudeism but the more you wander around Dudeism the more you see that in reality Dudeism and TBL are in reality pretty different and distant. Or are they not?

And being ordained is pure entertainment if you want to see it that way, is only for yourself if that's the way you roll, is a seriously silly thing if that's your game, And the beauty of Dudeism is that you're right in every case, if you just take it easy. Isn't simply great? That's why Dudeism ties everything together, does it not? The only rule about the rest of the world is that we welcome everyone who is a dude. That's why here and there some of us are trying to clarify what being a dude means, to benefit all of us. At least that's the modest task.

Good points hominid.  8)

Rev. apnp I agree with you, humor is one of the most, if not the most, important features of Dudeism. Without humor you're just another uptight amateur. We always try not to lose it, and Rev. Meekon always does his best about it.  ;D
IMDO: Always In My Dudely Opinion, dude. And, dude, let's not forget that sometimes I'm a f***ing moron.

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Rev. Ed C

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2011, 07:57:18 AM »
I vote this thread "The Best Fucking Forum Conversation To Date". Rev, Andrea, Meekon - Y'all get awards for helping define and galvanize what all this abidin' is about. I'm thuroughly impressed.

I'll try not to take it too personally that I was left out of those name-checks, although I suspect that once again I'm the one that's been maligned as the one trying to take it too seriously :P

Nothing can be further from the truth.  The thing about being serious and having a laugh is that there should be no distinction between the two!  If you have serious parts and jokey parts it doesn't work.  You need something that's a serious joke.  Deep thoughts tinged with levity and wit coloured intellectual grey.

But this simple dude does have some thoughts:

The effort to differentiate between a religion and a belief system goes beyond (what I think) is the intent of being a Dudeist priest, as I don't think (...correct me if I missed something), the Dudely Lama envisioned such hair splitting. I see it all as a lark; something to harpoon real religions (Christian or not), placing " abiding" at the core; using an ethos to replace dogma. Those wanting to separate the two are taking it seriously beyond the founder's goal and vision, which is my interpretation of the whole Dudeism thing. To me, taking it further and SERIOUSLY being a dudeist priest, hanging a shingle identifying oneself as such, going full boat... Personally, who would take you seriously as a philosopher, stating your values are based on those of a character of a movie. Ya, OK, there's people who claim to be Jedi, but who doesn't smirk behind their backs?  Having a core set of values that may PARALLEL those of a pop culture icon is the fodder for doctorates, not the other way around.

Now, I'm not sure who you're referring to when it comes to "Those wanting to separate the two are taking it seriously beyond the founder's goal and vision".  I've never seen anyone taking Dudeism seriously.  But, there are people who take it as a joke.  It's neither!

And no one's trying to base a philosophy on the movie here... that's what this thread is about, separating the philosophy from the movie which is making too much of a joke out of something that has a wider potential.  The idea is to have this genuine philosophy that's been around in unspoken terms for longer than we can track.  The philosophy is the easygoing way to a happy life where you're not sober or drunk, you're limber, and you're not serious or joking, you're eternally lighthearted :)

These is to separation going on here.  To say things shouldn't be serious is a claim for separation.  Serious and joking should always be the same around here, but all too often people assume because I don't shoehorn in 20 Lebowski quotes per post that I'm being a serious fuck... yet I'm not the only one to bring up long and intricate ideas here, but I don't see anyone else taking flak for it :P

The DL always thinks of me as being a big-hitter, because of the sort of articles I write, but that's needed because it balances with all the lighter stuff that goes into the DP.  I'm not going to apologise for tackling big issues around here (least of all as it recently stopped Meekon from riding out of town on his ox ;)) because I think they're highly necessary, or this might as well be a community of Lebowskiists endlessly quoting the same small stock of lines at each other, which is not what Dudeism is about.  It may have elements of that, for those that enjoy that kind of thing, but we're talking about it taking over, which wrong-foots some of us who are not so down with that.

Personas hook us into emulating what we approvingly perceive, but we're left to act upon only our own reflection... or is that too Shinto?

Inner-estin' point there, apnp.  That could certainly be true.  The act of emulation is always going to be a flawed one, but I still think my point is that emulating The Dude is to be unlike The Dude, who emulates nothing, which as I say, is one of the big flaws a lot of Buddhists have.  It's a mythed point!

Wanting to be more dude-like is the aim here, not more THE Dude-like.  This isn't about a character, it's about an ideal of which the character is a part of.  So, in that way you're really quite correct.  We all try and reflect the "dude way" but in our own way... which is almost never going to be The Dude's way, it will always be our own... so why get hung up on The Dude?

Anyhow, what I am abided most by, thusfar, in my admittedly nascent Dudeist sojourn, is the humour of the play... I would hope, at least, that it is appropriate to suppose that any Abidism which disdains The Dude (I can't yet speak of The Dowd) is simply unabideable.  We're not supposing a mission to include everyone, are we?  Inclusion is a nebulous concern, ...but that's like just my opinion... ;)

Once again, I'm a little confused that anyone would take from any of these threads that anyone where actively disdains The Dude.  It's not, never has been and never will be about removing The Dude or TBL from Dudeism, it's about downplaying it, because Dudeism is not, was never and will never be all about them.  It's once facet which has become disproportionate to the rest of our Dudeist philosophy.  And, once again, The Dude is not a character for the world, he's a character mostly for America.  Dudeism works just fine with our open and wide-reaching grasp of the universe... it doesn't work at all if it's just tied into the 90min of a Hollywood movie (even if it is a Coen Brothers film, which trumps everything else in Hollywood ;D).

And yes, surely Dudeism IS open to all.  Inclusion is universal, as long as people can dig our style and be dude.  If Dudeism is only for Lebowskiists and clones of The Dude, then a hell of a lot of people here will have to walk :P

Boxing Dudeism into TBL is creating some really uptight thinking.  Not including TBL creates a lacking in the philosophy the same as if we ignored any other influential source.  We're about opening up the potential and running around with it.  Lebowskiian philosophy is just a small bungalow, but Dudeism is an endless field in which to run and play, with the universe shining above us to ponder and wonder at.  The bungalow is part of the field, it's not the whole of the field :D


Rev. AF... let me get back to you later.  Lot points to cover, I need to take a break for a short while here :P
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 07:59:53 AM by Rev. Ed C »
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meekon5

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2011, 08:15:21 AM »
I vote this thread "The Best Fucking Forum Conversation To Date". Rev, Andrea, Meekon - Y'all get awards for helping define and galvanize what all this abidin' is about. I'm thuroughly impressed.

I'll try not to take it too personally that I was left out of those name-checks....

By the gods you don't half whinge sometimes mate.

I think the "rev" bit was actually aimed at you (Hominid possibly not realising there's a few "rev's" here abouts)

;D

Too quick to leap on your soap box as usual. You passive aggressive types make me itch.

(now there that was picking on you, happy now).

Personally I think it's a throw back to not getting enough attention from your parents.
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

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Rev. Ed C

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2011, 08:33:30 AM »
I vote this thread "The Best Fucking Forum Conversation To Date". Rev, Andrea, Meekon - Y'all get awards for helping define and galvanize what all this abidin' is about. I'm thuroughly impressed.

I'll try not to take it too personally that I was left out of those name-checks....

By the gods you don't half whinge sometimes mate.

I think the "rev" bit was actually aimed at you (Hominid possibly not realising there's a few "rev's" here abouts)

;D

Too quick to leap on your soap box as usual. You passive aggressive types make me itch.

(now there that was picking on you, happy now).

Personally I think it's a throw back to not getting enough attention from your parents.

oops :P  I thought he meant Rev. AF.  Ha, missed the "," in there entirely!  My bad.  I'm afriad I just woke up, and I've not been sleeping well due to my night shifts (I'm trying to get the hell out of this job!), so apologies if I've misread anything, my perceptions are currently mired in my ailing health.  Although as the :P at the end of the sentance indicates, it was a joke on my part :)

Still, I think apart from that one badly-placed joke at the beginning there (sorry Hominid!), my points all still stand ;)

To be honest, I've been a little overly paranoid since that backlash against me from certain types on the Moving Dudeist Forwards post, and the eventual viscuious personal tirade I suffered from one ex-member.  Kind of makes a guy think he really is the villian ;D

As for you picking on me, Meekon... that's run of the mill stuff.  If you stopped picking on me, I'd think you didn't like me anymore!  (if you even did in the first place ;)).

And what was that, you're going to throw me back at my parents... that's harsh  :o (on them!)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 08:37:15 AM by Rev. Ed C »
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Hominid

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2011, 09:47:49 AM »
Rev. Ed C: yes, you were included. You react too quickly.
Meekon: Thanks for the backup
Andrea: you're the voice of reason. But - I still say that separating TBL from dudeism is a moot point, simply because of the outcome: who cares? We'll still be laughed at when asked about the roots of our faith.

I challenge everyone to cut their posts down to no more than 50 words.

I just woke up with a hangover, so go easy on me...




Rev. Ed C

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2011, 10:50:25 AM »
Rev. Ed C: yes, you were included. You react too quickly.
...
I challenge everyone to cut their posts down to no more than 50 words.

I just woke up with a hangover, so go easy on me...

As I said, it was a joke, I wasn't taking offense.  The post wasn't meant to come of as a reaction, it was just a reply to the points made by several of you.  Bad comic timing on my part :P

And yeah, I know how you feel.  I've got what's akin to a hangover, and I wasn't even drinking!  I do shiftwork, only there's no pattern to it, so I'm up and down like one of those plastic things on a string... I guess that's throwing out my humour-ometer a little ;D

Once again, apologies if it looked like there was a wounded idiot on top of a soap box, it was just a half-asleep idiot on top of a pile of shit ;)

That was more than 50 words, I'm sure... but still fairly snappy for me! :)
Large chunks of my Dudeist philosophies can be found in my Dudespaper column @
http://dudespaper.com/section/columns/dude-simple/

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meekon5

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Re: what is abiding?
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2011, 11:32:31 AM »
See I think this whole paranoia thing about other groups not taking us seriously is just a matter of image.

I think we should do what our namesake "the church of the latter day saints" and have spotty teenagers standing on street corners with their "Church Elder" badges. Nice shinny suits.

;D

See that's what we lack, fast talking, nice dressing, glib sounding individuals. A bit like the Scientologists have.

;D

People that when interviewed by nice film crews wouldn't embarrass us by being so stoned off their boxes all they can do is shoot defenseless inanimate objects with big guns.

;D

The last time one of them (mormons that is) tried to engage me in debate he asked me "what are the three most important things in your life?"
Unfortunately for him he was picking on me during a particularly nasty hangover so he got "Drugs, Booze, and women!"
Funnily enough he decided not to continue the discussion.

;D

And Ed hope your humour omelette gets better soon.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:49:03 AM by meekon5 »
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

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