what is abiding?

[cckeiser]

If we use the language and lines from TBL we are talking Dudeism. (In The Parlance of our times, pull a piece out on the lanes...etc) That is the intentional influence of the movie on Dudeism. We Can Not separate Dudeism from TBL...I would not and Do Not wish to. What The Dudely Llama has woven together let no man put asunder!
The problem it seems is several ordained ministers in the church of the latter day dude feel there is Too Much Lebowski in Dudeism and would prefer more Tao and Abiding and a lot less of the Dudespeak.
They would like to concentrate on what it means to Abide and leave the TBL movie to the Lebowskist.
Ok, if that is the way you wish to roll...fine...but that is Not Dudeism.
As it has been pointed out...it is only one leg of what Dudeism is.

And in my opinion...you are correct...All dudes Abide, but not all who Abide are dudes.

It is just that The Dudely Llama founded Dudeism based on The Dude in The Big Lebowski...If he had founded on some other dude like person in history it would not have been called Dudeism but something else and we would be using the language from that movie and we would be calling ourselves something other than dudes.

Dudeism is, and always will be, heavy in Lebowski...we can not take the Lebowski out of Dudeism...if we do...it is Not Dudeism...it's something else.

[Caesar dude]

I'm a dude: I have a rug and certificate to make it official....but more than that I have friends who substantiate the fact.

I abide: I really have learned lot about abiding this year with everything that has happened in my life. I've had to put most things on hold as you all know but my dudeist nature has carried me through without actually ripping anyone's head off.

I'm a Big Lebowski fan: I love the movie and as I only actually own three DVD's that should tell you something....the others are "what the bleep do we know" and "the Blues brothers" I want the Jungle book but can't seem to find a version that will suit my budget!

So all three tenets of Dudeism are allowed I feel and there really should be no schism...at the end of day we are dudes and we have Certificates of Ordination which means we are ordained. From Wiki: "ordination is the process by which individuals are consecrated, that is, set apart as clergy to perform various religious rites and ceremonies. The process and ceremonies of ordination itself varies by religion and denomination."

We all knew when we signed up that we were becoming members of the slowest growing "religion" in the world. Why should there be an issue now?

I may be being too simplistic about all this but then that's just me!

Peace and love to you all.

[Rev. Ed C]

Well, once again, not only am I not advocating the removal of TBL, only downplay, I would perhaps dispute something

Dudeism is about being a dude, it's not about being Jeff Lebowski, hence why we are not Lebowskiists.  He's a great example, and he's the inspiration, but he's not the only dude and we are not a movie cult, so why would some people insist on making it so, that's never been what Dudeism is about (not entirely, in part yes).

My standpoint is give a little slack on the TBL thing and use it as needed.  I reference it at about once per article, because there's usually something of relevance I can take from it and use to illustrate my point perfectly that almost everyone can relate to.  Likewise, I use other Coen films as points of reference, because if the message fits, use it, I say

I think excessive use of TBL has become a crutch at times, and a hindrance at other.  When it's too heavily used it's restrictive to the flow.  I think each person needs to find their balance, and if it becomes too much on one aspect of this massive thing, then why not just say you're a Lebowskiist and be done with  If I spent my time going on about one particular Dudeist influence, like a book, or a person, or a band, I think I'd just be a cult of the band, surely?

And anyway, one of the main beefs that people, including me, and several other prominent Dudes I know of, is that TBL is not only an exclusionary focus for women and non-caucasians, but to non-Americans.  TBL is a constant drag of US culture into what is supposed to be a universal philosophy.  I know few of the prominent Brits who really feel TBL has much to say to them, but Dudeism does (with or without TBL).  The Dude is not a figure that works so well in the UK, and maybe I'm wrong, but Andrea will tell me if I am, Italy as well?

Take the recent forum thread that caused issues as an example.  What State (not state of mind) Do You Come From?  Thinkingdude's first assumption was that Dudeism was an American thing and excluded all the Brits, Canadians, Italians and the Chilean, as well as anyone else from taking part in the discussion.

It's because of this overly heavy TBL take on Dudeism that I wanted to start discussing Dudeism in the UK and try and built up a cultural overview that links Britian to Dudeism using perspective from within and from without.  The Dudely Lama was 100% behind the idea and hoped other nations would follow suit.  Andrea actually has an Italian Dudeism website/blog that he runs which is quite popular and as I'm lead to believe is not heavy on Lebowski, but does use it.

This is an issue of balance and alienation.  The more TBL that's thrust unnecessarily into Dudeism dilutes its universal appeal and the scope of the message.  Remove it and it kills off the heart of what we have here, but inflate it and the whole thing blows up as just another movie-cult/joke with no merit.

Balance, dudes, balance.  Am I fucking right?

[Andrea Da Fino]

Yes you're right. 

no time to write now but I'll do it as the first thing tomorrow.

Cheers dudes!

[Andrea Da Fino]

Hi Busmum, nice to meet you. Honestly I've lost the previous weeks conversations so I haven't really understood the Abideism thing. Maybe I'm wondering around but, well, let's go talking.

As I understand it the beauty of Dudeism lies in its simplicity that is if you abide, take it easy and avoid being uptight you are a Dudeist, whatever you call yourself. Plus, that's my idea, the beauty of Dudeism is that following only one of its three tenets you're actually following all three: if you're not uptight than you take life easy and you're able to abide..... Something like the three celtic knots.

As Rev.Ed said in Europe things are different than USA, as an example here LebowskiFest hasn't really got a grasp and similar experiments in Italy have had the same fate. Being right or not our Dude has always been seen as a bummer who smokes pot all the day and cares about nothing. We know that's the wrong way to look at the movie but a lot of people see him this way. And usually they are also either those who see Dudeism as a religion with too many rules for them or those who think that we don't want to earn a living by ourselves but just live on someone else's shoulders. I might be wrong though.

Anyway imho the movie is one thing and the religion is another and this could be pretty correct; if I'm not wrong not all those who go to the LebowskiFest are Dudeists, that's the specific place for movie fans and not all Dudeists are fan of the TBL. We are not a movie-cult and we can't be if we want our beloved religion to spread in the world.

As I see the connection between the movie and the religion, and as I explain it to my readers, is that Dudeism as a religion is inspired to the Dude's attitude to life. What makes the Dude a Dude is how he lives just trying to be calmer than everyone else and this it's the only thing that matters, or the only literal connection. Can you take life as easy as the Dude? Then you're a Dudeist. Can you not? Then even if you know every line of the movie and smoke pot all the day doing nothing (but tell me how do you get your money) you're not a Dude, not in the Dudeist meaning anyway. But whatever the case Dudeism is obviously interlinked with The Big Lebowski and as a wiser fella than myself said it will always be, because the movie was the spark who lighted everything.
I mean, TBL is not Dudeism and Dudeism is not TBL. For a movie fan it might be that driving stoned and having unprotected sex with someone you've just known is cool but from a Dudeist point of view is stupid, always imho. Dudeism is one thing, TBL is another but they are connected, in some cases literally but what counts for us is the Dude's attitude, not much his everyday life. At least this is what Brandt told me.

I think the balance thing Rev.Ed says is pretty correct, and btw as Dudeists we should always keep for balancing everything, for the whole yin-yang thing. But it's true that the TBL doesn't have the same grasp in Europe as it has in USA but it's also true that above 80% of those who get interested in Dudeism are because they've seen the movie and want to see in what conditions we're in. Then if they feel we are the right religion for them they stick with us.

Dudes, I'm beginning to loose my train of thoughts but I'll try to keep them for a while.

Let me see if I'm able to summarize my thoughts; Dudeism is inspired by TBL but you can be a Dudeist without having ever seen the movie; you can see the movie once every day and being in no way a Dudeist; this is Dudeism, following our three tenets with the other things of not pissing on other rugs and that what happens between consenting adults is their business; to be a Dudeist it is not required to talk using lines from the movie, even if a lot of us like it and btw it's fu***ng easier then using Latin; Dudeism is spreading in a lot of Countries, if I remember well there is a Dudeship also in Northern Europe; there is always room for improvement but there is no need to fix what works or to reinvent the wheel.

To summarize even more Dudeism is good as it is and I'm cool with that. As Rev. Ed said Balance, or Harmony, is the key to enlightenment.

F**k it, this has been exhausting. And I don't even know if I missed the point, oh well.

Have a nice whathaveyou dudes, 

[forumdude]

well said, andrea. that's a swiss fucking watch. or an italian one, anyway. made me laugh to beat the band.

seriously, you're as good an advocate as any. what you just said should (imho, pending review by compeers) be dudeist canon.

thankee sir. you're a good mang and thurrah.

[Andrea Da Fino]

thanks forumdude, feeling like I've just found a ringer with one million dollars in it.

[Rev. Ed C]

Thanks for the backup, AF, I was starting to feel like the lone park ranger back there

Makes me seem like less of a nut when someone agrees with me.  Two nuts in a pack, right on!

Great definition!

[Busmum]

nicely done andrea-dude... 

that's as good a summary of what's been happening, conversation-wise, as anyone could wish, and i'm not sure i could expand on it, or even need to.  preaching to the choir, mang!

keeping the 3 tenets in mind (which i visualize as a braid of sorts, like the celtic imagery you mentioned), a person's ability to abide has always fascinated me; speaking from a personal standpoint, i should probably be dead, and yet, i abide. i've worked with children who have been in the most fucked-up and horrible situations, and yet, they abide. sometimes i feel that we abide, because we must-- there's some innate force saying, "keep going-- you might be despairing right this moment, but there's a lane right around the corner that's been freshly oiled, just for you".

your points are all well taken, and as i mentioned before, i just feel very drawn to the particular aspect of abiding... which is sometimes easily explained by using language from TBL, and sometimes not.

To summarize even more Dudeism is good as it is and I'm cool with that.

not to discount the beauty of your post, but i think we can continue to work on breaching the gender, image and race issues, without compromising our ideals. as ed pointed out:

And anyway, one of the main beefs that people, including me, and several other prominent Dudes I know of, is that TBL is not only an exclusionary focus for women and non-caucasians, but to non-Americans. 

i understand the reference to the movie in that particular quote, but we have also been trying to address in recent weeks how we can go beyond stereotypes and reach people in a meaningful way of all genders and cultural backgrounds.  merely saying, "here's the image, and here's the word, and it's gender neutral. end of story", really doesn't cut it, unless we are actively living it in the wider world... so i'm interested in how people from all walks of life abide.

it's kinda the point hominid made in my original post-- how we live it, is important, and interesting to me, because our experiences are bound to be fundamentally diverse. lovely, isn't it? 

and i must say, i'm very pleased to meet you as well 

[Busmum]

We all knew when we signed up that we were becoming members of the slowest growing "religion" in the world. Why should there be an issue now?

you know CD, this is a good point... i did know that this was a "religion" as described... and i'm a bit peeved at myself for not taking that aspect seriously enough, because in general, i feel that a "religion" is vastly different than a "belief system".

unfortunately, i'll have to get back to this thought later  today is the first day of school for the joes, so i need to get my parent game on!

[Rev. Ed C]

keeping the 3 tenets in mind (which i visualize as a braid of sorts, like the celtic imagery you [Andrea] mentioned),

Yeah, I dunnot why I missed that one... I braid my beard daily, my hair occasionally and wear a big celtic design belt buckle and a celtic pattern bolo-tie most days.  And yet, through all my (falsely) acquired celtic pride, I missed that perfect image.

I guess it can also be taken like the weave of a rug, for our Lebowskiist brethren
A rug with only one colour of thread is a very bland thing.  It takes a couple more colours to throw into the weave to make the rich tapestry of what we're (all) all about.

As long as we keep this balance right, like the yin-yang of such aspects as

... humour/seriousness  |  science/spirituality  |  introversion/extroversion  |  selfishness/selflessness's  |  retrospection/foresight  ...

and other such things we'll make sure we're not straying into being something that's inbalanced, either as individuals or as a group.

Being all about "having a laugh" is dangerous ground, but so is being all about "serious focus".  It's like my article 'Keep It Limber, Dudes' which advocates a balance in the form of moderation.  The model of the rigid mind, tempered with the soggy mind being the limber mind can be applied to anything, not just alcohol or drugs.  If we're all about humour we're treading into the realms of the soggy, limp, useless way of doing things.  If we're only serious, we're rigid, inflexible and uptight.  Hence my take on gentle seriousness tinged with levity.  The limber path

I don't know who here's ever see Akira Kurosawa's 'Seven Samuri', the masterpiece movie that 'The Magnificent Seven' is based on (which I never have gotten around to seeing), but I always thought one character stood out as the most dude-like (although I also thought that Gorobei was also a pretty good example of dudeliness).

Heihachi is the good-natured, high-spirited joker who is charming, honest and focused.  He never stresses out, but he's not a fool.  He is wise and level-headed, unlike the polar opposites of two of his fellows - Kikuchiyo, the false samurai who is a piss-taking hothead, and Kyuzo the stoney stoic who takes life with a wise seriousness.

Heihachi is the archetypal dude.  He's not so much into throwing rocks as he is into splitting logs, of which he accomplishes perfect strikes until thrown a bit of a curveball in the conversation.  You know you can have a laugh with him and he's always got your back.  The serious joker!

[edit, realised I needed to conclude my musing... ]

Aren't we following in a tradition of those erstwhile serious jokers?  And aren't we trying to pave the way for future compeers?  We are the serious jokers, we are the dudes

[Andrea Da Fino]

You're welcome Rev. Ed. Two nuts in a pack, you mean like testicles? 

Busmum, far out. As for the abiding thing I agree with you, it's a special trait of special people be it done with a smile on the face, like the Dude, or more seriously, like many fellows human beings. Actually I think that abiding and going on is what makes a hero, a real hero, people who even if they have been hit by storms more than once in their life don't use it as an excuse to be a nihilist but go on with their life as well as they can. These for me are real heroes, and they don't need a pair of testicles; actually I know some women who are really heroes in this sense.

As for the gender, image and race, probably I'm missing the point but sometimes, sometimes, TBL is just a movie while in Dudeism we don't have any issue with race or gender or whatever. We are cool pretty much about everything since the only difference is being dude or undude. But discussing dudely about different points of view is always enriching so if these issues come out it's good to talk about them.

And as you say listening to other ways of seeing Dudeism or different experiences is extremely interesting and one of the beautiful things of having a worldwide religion. You and Rev. Ed are 100% right when you say that around the world Dudeism, TBL and a bunch of other things are seen differently or from others points of view. That's why imho one of the things we should do, as the dudely llama did in one of his articles, I don't remember when, is to make clear that TBL is a movie and Dudeism is a religion, sometimes they mix and sometimes they don't. But if somewhere someone discards Dudeism because it's based on an American movie character, well, we can't accommodate everyone in our private residence, sad but true. There will always be people like Woo.

But again a dudely discussion is always enriching and I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle so just take what I've said as a partial point of view.

[Andrea Da Fino]

Rev Ed, as for the balance thing you know you're right, even if sometimes it's easier said than done, at least for me. I'm not able yet to abide as well as I'd wish, but that means there is room for improvement.

Anyway, when I think about being a Dude I think of a bamboo tree, it flexes up to a certain point but then goes straight again, and if you are the one who bent it you risk a smash on your face, much like a world of pain. Isn't it inneresting?

Don't know much about Seven Samurai's characters, I've seen it but around 30 years ago but I find pretty dude Kung Fu Panda. He abides and reach his goal, that's what a dude does, I think.

Far out dude!

[Rev. Ed C]

Anyway, when I think about being a Dude I think of a bamboo tree, it flexes up to a certain point but then goes straight again, and if you are the one who bent it you risk a smash on your face, much like a world of pain. Isn't it inneresting?

I like that analogy

I just used the old Rabbi Nathan adage: "At all times let a person be supple as the reed and not rigid as the cedar." for my article on balance through moderation http://dudespaper.com/keep-it-limber-dude.html

Don't know much about Seven Samurai's characters, I've seen it but around 30 years ago but I find pretty dude Kung Fu Panda. He abides and reach his goal, that's what a dude does, I think.

Kung Fu Panda is a dude in training, that's for sure  As for you not seeing Seven Samurai for 30 years... man, I didn't realise you were of that age, I thought you were "wise before your time", but it seems you're actually more "youthful after your time"

You're welcome Rev. Ed. Two nuts in a pack, you mean like testicles?  

I was thinking more of salted peanuts, a pair of old salts... but I guess you're analogy is pretty salty too

Ok, moving past the scrotal jokes...

Rev Ed, as for the balance thing you know you're right, even if sometimes it's easier said than done, at least for me. I'm not able yet to abide as well as I'd wish, but that means there is room for improvement.

Well, we can't all be well-balanced to perfection, that's the ideal here.  No Buddhist is enlightened until he's a Buddha (and vice-versa), and likewise, no Dudeist is a pure dude until they reach this perfect balance and shrug off the stresses of the world and live down that perfect middle way of the dude.

We all stresspass and have moments when we lose our sense of humour or fall too deeply into it.  It's human.  All we can do is even things up.  If we've been grumpy for a while, switch it and lighten up once your grumpiness ends.  Throw a little unbridled joy back at the people who had to put up with you as a grumbling moper.  If we look to the past too much, look to the future a bit.  If we spend all our time doing things for other people, stop and take some time to do something for yourself.

No one can be perfectly balanced all the time, it defies universal logic.  All we can do, with practice, is keep the balance closer and closer without such wild swings in our behaviour or point of view.  If you try and temper your anger each time, maybe the next time it will come back a little less severe and you keep the swings more in check until one day, in many years time, you might not even notice the little ups and downs so much and become closer to a true you, not a Jeckyl and Hyde figure of extremes, but a gentle, centred, balanced individual who is only ever trying to be one person.

Busmum, far out. As for the abiding thing I agree with you, it's a special trait of special people be it done with a smile on the face, like the Dude, or more seriously, like many fellows human beings. Actually I think that abiding and going on is what makes a hero, a real hero, people who even if they have been hit by storms more than once in their life don't use it as an excuse to be a nihilist but go on with their life as well as they can. These for me are real heroes, and they don't need a pair of testicles; actually I know some women who are really heroes in this sense.

Yeah, I have noticed this in people.  It's a reaction to adversity.  It's kind of like "whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger" in some ways.  If you can come through something bad and keep the experience in your subconscious it will always be there to help you abide whatever comes next.  For Busmum to have noticed this in a school is a sad thing, but I hope that gives them the strength to truly bounce back and become happier people in the long-term.

And as you say listening to other ways of seeing Dudeism or different experiences is extremely interesting and one of the beautiful things of having a worldwide religion. You and Rev. Ed are 100% right when you say that around the world Dudeism, TBL and a bunch of other things are seen differently or from others points of view. That's why imho one of the things we should do, as the dudely llama did in one of his articles, I don't remember when, is to make clear that TBL is a movie and Dudeism is a religion, sometimes they mix and sometimes they don't. But if somewhere someone discards Dudeism because it's based on an American movie character, well, we can't accommodate everyone in our private residence, sad but true. There will always be people like Woo.

This is very true.  What we need to do is make sure that all dudes are accounted for and respected, no matter the gender, ethnicity, nationality, background, sexuality, political persuasion, etc.  If they're down with us, they're part of us.

At the moment, after the US, the UK seems to have the second highest Dudeist population/activity, followed by it seems Italy, then the northern European countries battling out for the next 4 or 5 places.  The attitude that a few people seem to take, which I think is precisely the wrong one, is to say "if you don't like it, fuck off and find somewhere you do like."

Now, I've not met anyone here who doesn't like TBL, both as a movie and as an example of Dudeism.  The word example is key there.  We need to be able to put in more and more examples of Dudeism that rank with TBL.  As I mentioned before, on the Dudeism.com website, the Great Dudes in History page lists The Dude somewhere in the middle of a random list of influences, and the What is Dudeism page doesn't even mention TBL.  But, the banner at the top of the page says that we're The Religion of The Big Lebowski.  Mixed message somewhat?  I know Olly's been stupidly busy for a long while and as these things grow it's hard to look back and balance out the old stuff with the new, especially if you're just one man.

Hence my efforts to try and get us all to discuss where we think we're at and going, that is "Moving Dudeism Forwards".  We need to move forwards, yes, but not away from things.  We need to look at where we're going and where we've come from at once and reach for that balance that will being to suit our little society so that it can grow and flourish as one, not as many all stuck together

Saying "it's fine, leave it as it is" is, and forgive me for saying, the true act of burying one's head in the sand.  Nothing is the same from one moment to the next.  The universe is destroyed and rebuilt for every instant of time, as the Buddhists believe.  Things are never the same, people are never the same.  Mountains are impermanent, one day they will be rubble, and then dust and then atoms.  "Leaving things as they are" is like damning up a river and making a lake.  Where's the flow?   Where's the Tao?  If nature had left things as they were there'd be no life, no evolution.  Leaving things as they are in just taking a snapshot of a perfect instant in time and holding it infinitely.  It doesn't happen.  Things change, things move, the river trickles on, even if we try and stand still in it.

This isn't about forcing change, it's about consciously realising what is changing and what will change.  You can't resist the passage of time, so why resist the movement of Dudeism?  Let's make a promise, shall we, all those who disagree with what they think I'm on about?  If I promise not to try and drag Dudeism forwards, you promise not to hold it back?  

There's a lot of people standing in the Dudeist river, and I hope at some point we'll have a hell of a lot more

[Busmum]

right the fuck on, man... and now i must go have a good cry, because i'm an emotional wreck today 
keep the lanes open dudes, and the minds limber. 

peace and abidance