Dudeism and Theism

[forumdude]

Hey so after weeks of arguments and kerfuffles the admins of this a here forum got together and finally decided to ban Iconocclesiastes. Ultimately the decision came down to me, and I take full responsibility for it. We tried to cut him slack and see if he couldn't modify his behavior to better fit in with the temper of the community but ultimately he as just too provocative and aggressive.

To clarify, he wasn't banned for being a Christian (as he believes) but because he was too aggressive in baiting the people on this forum who are not into the whole Jesus thing.

We nearly lost Shagbeard due to Icon trying to convince him that Dudeism is anti-God or anti Christian. We are not. Christian Dudeists are welcome so long as they don't try to lodge an agenda into the abutment. Shagbeard is avowedly Christian but seems to be easygoing about it. And I think he should be made to feel welcome so long as he continues to play nice and not harp on endlessly about Christy stuff, as Icon did.

I would appreciate it if those of us who don't like Christianity and get irritated by references to Jesus please cut him (and others like him) some slack. It's not necessary to hurl insults of people because they believe in unproveable things. I would also ask Shagbeard and others to try to avoid discussing metaphysics and God as Dudeism is not designed to address stuff like that. We're not against it, only it has no place in our pantheon, so to speak. That goes for Reiki practitioners, crystal healers, past life regressionists, astrologists, and so on as well, not to mention so-called "religious" Taoists (as opposed to the philosophical branch, of which we are an extension).

In other words, let's try to have fun here. We're not going to solve the world's problems. We're just going to make it a nicer place to hang out.

[Shagbeard]

I'm mellow, haha, I love this pic

[Shagbeard]

I'm mellow, haha, I love this pic

Make a killer tattoo...

[Yeti]

The way I understand it, Taioism ? Dudeism, but it is an interpretation of ancient Taioism so the two are not only in the same ballpark, but playing on the same team. That being said, I don't understand how the version of Taiosim we're practicing here is compatible with any theistic religion. It's that simple. I distrust any "avowed" theists that participate on this board because neither of these things are like the other. I sincerely don't understand how a sincere christian, or muslim, or hindu, or scientologist, etc. can participate here without having some sort of hidden agenda. If I were to join a Christian message board and proclaim myself to be an avowed Dudeist, I can only imagine what the reaction would be.

Others may interpret this as intolerance, but to me it's just a breakdown in simple logic and spiritual compatibility. I don't have a problem tolerating people, and I don't have a problem with Shagbeard - I think we've gotten along reasonably well since I joined. This is directed at anyone here who wants to discuss theism.

[elgranduderino]

 Good to see you are still around Shagster.

[forumdude]

Yes, Yeti, this is why in the link to the new topic I say that it would be best if people avoid bringing up metaphysical stuff. It's just not going to get any traction here and will almost certainly be met with disdain. When used to illustrate allegorical truths, Christianity and other "received" religions are welcome topics, but when they fall back on a priori assumptions or sacred cows to make their point then it's just not going to cut the mustard. I agree that Shagbeard might be at a disadvantage and probably might catch some heat if and when he brings up Christian stuff but so long as people are civil, and Shaggy doesn't use the Bible as a textbook (as opposed to a basis for literature or philosophy) then it shouldn't be a problem.

[Yeti]

Yes, Yeti, this is why in the link to the new topic I say that it would be best if people avoid bringing up metaphysical stuff. It's just not going to get any traction here and will almost certainly be met with disdain. When used to illustrate allegorical truths, Christianity and other "received" religions are welcome topics, but when they fall back on a priori assumptions or sacred cows to make their point then it's just not going to cut the mustard. I agree that Shagbeard might be at a disadvantage and probably might catch some heat if and when he brings up Christian stuff but so long as people are civil, and Shaggy doesn't use the Bible as a textbook (as opposed to a basis for literature or philosophy) then it shouldn't be a problem.

You're the boss, and I will be as tolerant and nice as I can be. I'm also a newbie when it comes to Taoism and Dudeism so there is still a lot for me to learn.

[Shagbeard]

I never came on here to talk or push bible. If I did bring it up would be brief but only for relevant use,otherwise I am truly here to get back my dudeness. I lost that and really hit bottom. I keep my meta-stuff off site. Don't worry about me.

[DigitalBuddha]

Hey dudes, with Icon gone, I feel free to release a few PM's I had written concerning, or to, him. I guess it's in the spirit of dude-like openness. So, here ya go, dudes...

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Hey Rev. Iconocclesiastes, greetings dude. Just wanted to run a couple of things by you (depending on how long my beer lasts).

It would seem you have become rather, ahhh, shall we say "popular" on the board, and that, in many ways, is a good thing. I say that because if you were a lazy brainless fuck not posting anything worth looking at, odds are, no one would pay much attention to you. So, I see a positive side to your "celebratory fame" here abouts. You do indeed stir up a lot of strong points of view, feelings, anger, comments, and some PMs going back and forth between Admins on your account, also.

Having said that, we come to the crux of my point, which is this; it would seem that when you first jumped on board, you began posting a lot of material with a strong Christian leaning, which is cool with me and generally cool with the Dudely Lama, as long as you are not here to be the board's TV evangelist trying to convert everyone to Christianity. Problem is, your activity on our rug seems to have been received as an attempt to "Bogart" our quiet beach community with your basic "I'm here to convert you dudes to my way of thinking, my religious beliefs." And, "If I can't, I'll sure as hell continue to make my point loud and clear."

Not sure if that was your motivation, BUT, that, for what it's worth, is how it has been received.

So, here it is, dude....

My advice is to lay low for a while, post material that everyone will enjoy. Make friends, join in the beach party and let's see other things you can share without trying to convert the masses. If you do share a religious point of view, how about doing so with a "that's just like my opinion, man, what are yours?" kind of thing. I don't think anyone here out right hates Christians, just pushy ones who have no respect for other beliefs and points of view. In presenting your beliefs, use some wisdom and post while being willing to show respect for other dudes and their ethos also. Remember Paul on Mars Hill? Yeah, that is from my childhood being dropped off at Sunday School every freaking week! LOL, damn forbid me in Sunday School! I was a pain in the ass! OK, I digress, so, onward...

Personally I find your subjects to be reasonably interesting and worth a look at, but have been concerned with how they have been, in the past, presented, and the affect they are having on some dudes. By the way, most dudes on this a here board have some kind of religious background such as Catholic, Protestant, or what have you; so I think they feel a bit slighted with you posting materiel to "educate" them. You come across like you think everyone else is an ignorant dumb ass. I don't think you mean to, but that's how it has been generally received.

In your defense; yes, there are 3 or 4 dudes who are suspicious of religious dudes, in particular, Christian ones, coming in and taking over, and they have been a bit short with you, even perhaps somewhat undude. Though, they might not see it that way, and their point of view is just as valid, Rev, dude. The bottom line is this; slow down a bit, take er' easy and do a little more listening than commenting. I think you have much to offer, but as they say "honey gathers more Bees than vinegar." You don't need to be on a mission here, just join in and share what you have.

I can tell you this; generally speaking, dudes on this board are open, friendly, willing to listen and except damn near any dude as a fellow dude who drops by and joins in, so if you use some discretion and lighten up a bit; you will find it easy to make dudely friends who respect you for being who you are if you respect them for who they are. I mean, they seem to be OK with a crazy fuck like me, so that should prove to you that you will have no problem in our beach community if you take it a bit easy. This is not a place to proselytize. Respectfully share your point of view, yes, proselytize, no.

Well, Rev. dude, that about wraps er' up, my whole durn story for ya! You know how it goes; "sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes, well, the bar eats you!" ...or was that "bear eats you?"

Good to have you here, Rev. Iconocclesiastes, I hope you stick around, dude, and make some friends. As for me; I'm glad he's out there, the Dude, takin' eh easy for all us sinners.

Abide!


......................


I agree, there is 3 or 4 dudes who don't like Christians, or more to the point; the don't like "preachy Christians." That is to say, they don't like Christians with an agenda, who are here to "lead them to the light" so to speak, and have what appears to be no respect (or very little) for what they believe also. So, that is why I advise sterling away from (or go really light on) religion for a while and post subjects such as art, music, current events and news, technology, dudeist events, humor...the list goes on and on. Why continue to post material that just pisses dudes off? You aren't going to get anywhere with anyone that way, so why waste so much time? Give it a rest and just work on making friends. After you have built some friendships and respect for who you are, then share your beliefs in a non-preachy way. There are times when "standing your ground" is a good thing, but other times when it is not. That is to say "choose your battles wisely." Or, as the good book says; "there is a time and place for everything." Perhaps this is not quite the time or place for too much religion? Remember; the Dude WAS a man for his time and place.

All I am saying is use some wisdom when you post. And, no, we do not let a dude be bullied out of here. We don't for any reason tolerate bulling. That WILL get a dude tossed out of here on their ass for sure.


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In regards to Christians on the chat board; I agree that they could be a problem if they persist in intolerantly pushing christian doctrine or an agenda on other dudes. That, of course, would be counterproductive to be sure. If that is the case, they will have to be dealt with.

Having said that; I'm hoping anyone...Sikes, Traditional Indians, African religions, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Pagan, Buddhist, or what have you, can join in and be a Dudeist while respecting other fellow dudes and other beliefs. I don't personally believe that a dude has to abandon and renounce other religious or non-religious beliefs and practices to be a Dude. As Eastern thinking has influenced Dudeism, perhaps other religions could also offer Dudeism new ideas (as long as they contribute and NOT dominate, or bring in a hidden agenda to subvert and control), such as the great offerings you have made as a Pagan, of which I have enjoyed and believe has contributed positively to Dudeism.

The problem here, as noted above, is the potential for one group to dominate and try and force Dudeism to conform to their way of thinking. That is an ever present danger, and could happen with a political group coming in with their hidden agenda also, not only a religious group. Can you imagine a bunch of nazis joining the chat board to infiltrate Dudeism and try and take over?! That would be MOST unDude!

So, it is my belief that we can't stop a religion, and people involved in a religion, from joining us and expressing their version of Dudeist thinking (that would be hard to do and a waste of time IMHDO), but we can insist on some guild lines that will help to ensure a fair and level playing field that will keep any group from dominating and subverting Dudeism. If we try to stop any religious people from joining, or try and censor them, we run the risk of creating fascho-dudeism (or "fascist Dudeism"), and we will end becoming what we propose to stand against and fight; that is to say, a religion of zero tolerance for others or perceived "out siders."

So, what must we insist on (and I do mean INSIST on) to keep the problem of Christians, or others, from destroying open and free Dudeism? I think the following...

- Insist on courtesy to all other dudes, and respect for their beliefs and practices.

- Cultivate an atmosphere of freedom of ideas for everyone.

- Agree to disagree in a agreeable manner.

- Make it plain to all members, and incoming new members, that this is NOT a place to join for the purpose of forcing your point of view or for proselytizing.

- Enforce a policy of no carpet bombing the chat board with your personal beliefs (share, yes, carpet bombing, NO).

- Issue warnings to any dude obviously engaged in an attempt to subvert the chat board to their agenda.

- Remove any dude who continues in any undudely behavior, after, or course, reasonable warnings have been issued.

- For new members, perhaps an addition to the Forum Stuff section of a mission statement that makes it plain and clear as to what, basically, Dudeism is and is not, and what basic guild lines a new member is expected to follow.

- Cultivate, and be an example of, an attitude that all opinions are "just like your opinion, man."

- Encourage members to tolerate all dudes who are here to abide and contribute without trying to dominate Dudeism.

- And, of course and always, encourage all members to take easy man, relax and abide with the rest of us.

All of which is just like my opinion, man. What are your thoughts?

[Shagbeard]

Was he down with what you said each of those? Or was it opinion in jest?

[MindAbiding]

I think you folks were mighty patient with Icon, and ultimately did the right thing. Icon's Christianity is never what bothered me, it's that he was here to start shit and he knew he could use that to get the group going.

At the end of the day, Icon was psychologically off. I don't want to pathologize unnecessarily, but his seething, vengeful rants followed by his calm, cool, and collected welcomes to new members on the boards (not to mention those cloying hug requests) tell me, at least, that he's battling some serious demons. I think we can all wish him well (even while he continues his rant about us on the Facebook dudeism group) and hope that he finds some peace in his life.

[Shagbeard]

Someone should post on there (PLEASE not me) in the fb group what Oliver said about it not being about Christian... and that Christians are welcome etc. Icon needs to see that from others. It would show Icon and others that Icon needs to back off the crusade.

[MindAbiding]

Hey Dude, I agree that providing a frame of reference would be a helpful thing. I'm reticent to do it because I'm not really interested in Icon knowing anything about my actual name for reasons I mentioned in my last post (I know, I know, I'm a coward, Donny). Perhaps forumdude could post this himself?

Someone should post on there (PLEASE not me) in the fb group what Oliver said about it not being about Christian... and that Christians are welcome etc. Icon needs to see that from others. It would show Icon and others that Icon needs to back off the crusade.

[Shagbeard]

No not a coward. I don't blame you, trust me he is on some crusade. He drives me nuts on fb. He is bowski-polar, extreme shifts from Walter to Dude.

[forumdude]

bowski polar. i dig that. cool euphemism shagbeard!