Is there a spiritual requirement for myth?

[dave420]

Hey, as this is my first post on the dudeist forum I want to open by giving the Big Lebowski and The Dude a massive thumbs up- it is one of my favourite films of all time, and as such I wish to talk for a bit about it in my dissertation which I am currently writing.
The topic is on the relationship between sprituality and film. Anyone interesting in contributing is more than welcome, and will be referenced in the finished paper (which I might post on the forum should there be enough interest.)

I'll open the discussion with a couple of questions on Dudeism specifically, but if anyone wants to make any broader points on the subject then please do!

1. do you think the message of The Big Lebowski is deliberately spiritual, or do you think people simply seek to find a spiritual message in such films?

2. does Dudeism stand out above other film-based religions (i.e. Jedi, Matrixism), and if so how?

If you'd rather contact me personally, my email is d.ross420@live.com

thanks dudes!

[FuckinA]

Well, to respond on topic 1.

For me it's clear that there are spiritual elements in the film, Lots of Buddhist visions, that is, abide.

Even if this was not the intention of the author(s), in this case, directors, to put in a spiritual message, that doesn't mean it's not there. As soon as a text, or any inspiration is written down, or in this case, even put on film, there exists a certain distance between the intentions of the writers and the people watching the movie (or reading the texts). This is an very common hermeneutic/ philosophical insight. The audience see and interpret the film and this changes their behaviour. This is the same with religious texts.

We can also first ask: how do you define spirituality?
I myself would define it as certain deeper insights about life, embedded in a broader worldview or religion. These insights can be obtained by reading tests, meditation, prayer etc.

There are definitely spiritual elements in the Big Lebowski. The Dude lives like  an "enlightened" person. He takes it easy, he abides, lives from day to day. These are common goals of most spiritual trends.
The dudes lives, in that sense, a spiritual life.

[meekon5]

I agree with FuckinA I don't think there was any intention on the brothers Coen's part to make anything religious.

It's the Taoist slacker synthesis that attracted me. that and the fact that I'll join almost anything for a laugh.

I suppose what your dissertation is intimating is that The Big Lebowski is our myth. But then The Dude is based on a real character.

Also we're not really venerating the Dude, just using him as an example, like Buddhist with Buddha, he may have come up with a good idea but this is how I see the thing.

I do see Jedi as trying to be part of the star wars film (do correct me if I am wrong Dudeist Jedi's). Where we as dudeists are trying to live our lives our own way, not so much applying a dogma more identifying where we agree.

As for Matrixism, damn those bloody commies they get everywhere.

[FuckinA]

Well, the Coen brothers were inspired by more than one person when they thought of the character of the Dude. But still, the Dude is not him: he is a fictional character, alive in us all.

[meekon5]

Actually I think Dudeism follows the line of the Laughing Buddha and eastern traditions of Holy Madness being close to the divine. Look to yoga, and the Buddhists for good examples of this principle. Then imagine an entire army of howling lunatics all doing their own thing at the same time. That's Dudeism.

Or maybe that's just an excuse for the bunch of crazy whack jobs like myself that post fairly regularly on this site.

[Rev. Ed C]

I definitely agree with the above, the Coens aren't ever out to make anything spiritual, simply poignant, maybe a stretch to profound (at the least entertraining).

But of course, anyone can find a spiritual message in just about anything if that's what they're looking for.  Take the scene in Life of Brian as an example, where he first becomes worshipped as a Messiah and everything he does is praised as divine, even telling them to go away, or dropping his sandal.  In the case of Dudeism, people weren't so much looking for something spiritual, but they were inspired by the simplism (to coin a phrase) of the message conveyed by The Dude for the purposes of entertainment.

I won't talk trash about other supposed film-based religions, because we all take inspiration from concepts to our own ends, and for that reason you can say we're on par.  I think the difference is that we're not following the idea created solely for entertainment, like the Jedi are, we're following an idea inspired by real life practice.

To elaborate:

The Dude is a character inspired by Jeff Dowd, and Jeff Bridges.  In turn, these people have been inspired by the concepts handed down through the ages that we Dudeists say have been shown in all corners of the world since man discovered the concept of 'just taking it easy'.  Lao Tzu, Siddhartha Gautama, Heraclitus, Jesus Christ, and so through the millennia until we arrive with you, our newest recruit to the Way of the Dude  

We're not so much a religion based on a film, as a religion realised through a film, and based on age-old practice that's never before been a tradition. We're also an amalgamation of concepts from Taoism, Buddhism, Humanism and Transcendentalism, as well some choice wise words from philosophers, prophets and whathaveyou.

I won't knock genuine Jedi, but I will say we're firmly not in the same category. We're not Lebowskists (well, some of us are), we're Dudeists, and that goes back longer than I care to remember (or research).

Hope all goes well with your paper.  And, if it does, send it into the Dudespaper, it might not only get published for all to see, but be added into the curriculum of Dude University.  You might even get an honourary doctorate out of it in the future, if all goes according to plan

[dave420]

Actually I think Dudeism follows the line of the Laughing Buddha and eastern traditions of Holy Madness being close to the divine. Look to yoga, and the Buddhists for good examples of this principle. Then imagine an entire army of howling lunatics all doing their own thing at the same time. That's Dudeism.

Or maybe that's just an excuse for the bunch of crazy whack jobs like myself that post fairly regularly on this site.

this is brilliant stuff dudes, for one thing the dudeist community seems far more talkative than the Jedi  
Im loving the holy madness; would it be fair to say then, that while Dudeism comes off as somewhat tongue in cheek (please correct me if that's a bit presumtuous), that 'holy fool' side to it is almost a necessity to dudeist practice?
'the wisdom of folly' seems to be all over numerous religions, and the 'wise fool' comes up as a recurring character type particularly in Elizabethan dramas. Would you agree that 'The Dude' fits this particular character description?

[FuckinA]

What in Gods holy name are you blabbering about!?
Well, I for one praise the folly...

[not_exactly_a_lightweight]

Actually I think Dudeism follows the line of the Laughing Buddha and eastern traditions of Holy Madness being close to the divine. Look to yoga, and the Buddhists for good examples of this principle. Then imagine an entire army of howling lunatics all doing their own thing at the same time. That's Dudeism.

Or maybe that's just an excuse for the bunch of crazy whack jobs like myself that post fairly regularly on this site.

this is brilliant stuff dudes, for one thing the dudeist community seems far more talkative than the Jedi  
Im loving the holy madness; would it be fair to say then, that while Dudeism comes off as somewhat tongue in cheek (please correct me if that's a bit presumtuous), that 'holy fool' side to it is almost a necessity to dudeist practice?
'the wisdom of folly' seems to be all over numerous religions, and the 'wise fool' comes up as a recurring character type particularly in Elizabethan dramas. Would you agree that 'The Dude' fits this particular character description?

So is Elizabethan dramas, is that like Shakespeare? or Lenin?

[meekon5]

Also I have doubt about the original premise:

Is there a spiritual requirement for myth?

I'm not sure The Big Lebowski is necessarily our myth, the Dude is an example or an inspiration but not necessary. Also the root in Taoism doesn't rely on a myth there even.

Perhaps we need a definition of your interpretation of the term "myth".

[dave420]

I suppose I'm defining "myth" as a story that through many re-tellings becomes an accepted part of society. (Ficticious, but normally embedded with a piece of a cultures wisdom.) I therefore see the Big Lebowski as a modern day myth, because it contains the classic message of the righteous overcoming hardship. This story has been told time and time again, (Joseph Campbells the hero with a thousand faces) but the hero and circumstance simply changes.

As youve all rightly said, what you learn from something you chose to learn- within literacy, film, art, or indeed any form of expressive art, personal interpretation is key. Essentially a story is a compliation of both the narrator, AND the listener. The audience shapes the way it is told, and in turn how it is told effects the way it is recieved. This is why it is fantastic that there is so much variety, as most people will be able to find at least one story they can connect with.

With this in mind I would agree with you- Im definately not suggesting that the Big Lebowski is your "Bible", so to speak, but the story itself is a modern myth. The Dude places a freindly and approachable face on an age old concept at the same time as putting a contemporary twist on it, which is surely why he is an inspiration. And the fact that academics seem to agree that the modern search for wisdom favours the path of the holy fool only backs up this point; the Dude shows signs of holy folly with his relaxed attitute toward that which isnt important and his displays of empathy over that which is.

(If your not sure what I mean by the holy fool, I mean the man who's accepted he knows nothing about God or the universe, sets aside his attempts to rationalise and embraces the divinity of chaos and ignorance. The holy fool is distinct from society as he rarely follows social convention. (correct me if I'm wrong, I think thats losely correct though))

hope that answered any questions, if anyone has any issues with these points please say! deadlines friday 

[meekon5]

Dave that's good for me (but thats just my opinion).

It may be useful for you to flick over some of the other more active threads to get an idea how some of the others deal with some of the issues.

Do remember that there are only a few of us who create the majority of the signal noise here on the forum. If you look at the stats for views I think there is a vast majority of people who (there is some sixty to seventy thousand members to the religion) don't ever comment.

[jjvicars]

You hit the nail on the head with the Joseph Campbell connection. Myth is a metaphor and any metaphor that rings true for you becomes a myth for you. And it's a two-way street, we project our individual myths outward and onto whatever public persons or works. The Greeks had theater, we have cinema. The only real difference is technology. On a larger, or deeper, scale film makers and other story tellers are in tune with the mass psyche and so we see aspects of ourselves played out. We all contribute in some way.

Problem in the Western world is people have been interpreting myths literally for far too long. Interpreting as historical facts, which have been rewritten over the ages to suit the Fascists. Much of the metaphor has been lost. There is rarely a literal connection, usually only a poetic one.

[Zen Dog]

In Elizabethan times and earlier, lunatics (fools) couldn't be punished for sedition.
The role of the Jester was to keep the Monarch informed of court gossip.
This is why Shakespeare used them to inform his audience although he often fell foul of the censor.
Later,Bedlam was described as the only place in England a man was truly free.

All myths, in my opinion, have an original true and simple element that is embroidered with each retelling.

Have the Coens ever made an original movie? Look at Oh Brother.. Inspired by Homer (no not that one).
I think if you want to know what TBL is really all about you'd have to ask Raymond Chandler.

[SuperSillyK]

I agree!

I find mythology is more often an extreme example of human nature, broken into different representatives.

Elements besides "gods" are a little less complex and confusing in nature.

I believe it really showcases how confused humans can be about themselves, their own complex intellect -- tamed or otherwise, and our own differences.

It may have a spiritual side hear or there, but it would be more like drawing a spiritual conclusion of your own from your personal experiences.

They give you a lot of confusing information, and the judgement calls or values taken from it are really those of the recipient.

I still enjoy the insight into the pasts imagination, but I am glad humanity is horrifying and confusing for me whenever something unusual happens.

I would say they are best enjoyed in speculation, when your spirit is not confused. Understanding a culture's imagination in the past can just plain be escapist, fun, but also give some insight into how fearful the ancient days were....

And how bravery and foolishness can become a confusing slippery slope.