The Dudeism Forum

It happened again man. I keep speaking plain English using standard dictionary definitions of words and being as cogent as possible and leaving people speechless merely by insisting I am ignorant. In this case, merely by admitting I am an ignorant agnostic. Socrates kept admitting he was ignorant and for that they killed him. He never claimed he was agnostic, which was a crime punishable by death, but they killed him anyway for the charge of heresy. They say he had a chance to escape and chose to martyr himself instead, but I wouldn't know. What I know is he was sentenced to die and, in dying, he became the iconic ignorant agnostic clown inspiring brain damaged idiots like myself to champion ignorance whenever they believe it might possibly make a difference.

I've been agnostic literally all my life. I never believed in either atheism or God and really have never cared less about either. It's like asking me if I care if the summer high temperature on Mars is -70f. That's nice. All I want to do is call myself an ignorant agnostic and everyone tells me it is wrong or silly to admit my ignorance or that the stupid words don't mean what the dictionary says they mean and I'm just confused. I'm agnostic meaning in the broadest sense of the word I take neither of two opposing sides. I don't even know what people mean by God, I don't care what they mean by God,  and I don't care what the hell they do in the name of God or atheism. All I want to do is be able to admit my ignorance in public and talk to like minded people who know they are ignorant and make no bones about it. I love being ignorant and I know others do as well. For me, my ignorance is the source of whatever humor, free will, creativity, and humility that I might possess.

I never equated agnosticism with ignorance. Some of the greatest minds in history have been agnostic. Some of the people I know don't get the concept, they confuse it with Atheism and it becomes kind of a topic of non-discussion. I've tried to explain that all it means is I don't know and you don't either. It doesn't bother me if others want to go to church and worship, maybe it's like giving themselves a little bit of a cushion....just in case. To me it's all about fear and a way to keep certain people in control and the rest under control so I just skip it.

Quote from: LotsaBadKarma on June 19, 2013, 02:18:19 AM
I never equated agnosticism with ignorance. Some of the greatest minds in history have been agnostic. Some of the people I know don't get the concept, they confuse it with Atheism and it becomes kind of a topic of non-discussion. I've tried to explain that all it means is I don't know and you don't either. It doesn't bother me if others want to go to church and worship, maybe it's like giving themselves a little bit of a cushion....just in case. To me it's all about fear and a way to keep certain people in control and the rest under control so I just skip it.

I don't know if religious people know and really could not care less. Maybe Jesus visits them in their dreams or whatever and that's where their faith comes from.

The growing majority of the world's thriving democracies are now all secular. What appears to be happening is as soon as their governments help them achieve a certain standard of living and comprehensive safety net they drop religion like a wet cat. Most might still call themselves spiritual, but seldom if ever attend any religious services. The implication from that and other studies is that religion appears to provide certain things including pressure on the wealthy to support the poor in their worst hour of need. It is a bargain agrarian cultures adopted with the wealthy for their mutual benefit and the bargain is sealed by the institutionalization of taboos including taboos against greed and ignoring the needs of your fellow men. Psychologists have also shown it can promote "resilience" or the ability to bounce back quickly from adversity, especially among the poorest of the poor or people in trenches fighting wars or whatever. What else it might do I don't know and, until recently, little real research has been done on the subject. However, the idea it is merely the opiate of the masses has been disproved as far as I'm concerned.

Much of the screaming, pulling hair, gnashing of teeth, and severely chapped lips among conservatives in the US today is, imo, due to the fact they see the writing on the wall. The US has always been the bastion of religion in the developed world and it has been on the decline for the last half century. In recent years, as entitlements have expanded the poor have abandoned religion en mass. As fundamentalists churches have become political institutions in all but name with preachers spouting endless vitriol about politics young fundamentalists have abandoned them. Like the republican party itself, it is now estimated by some their days a political force are numbered and they may not last another two decades. It seems if their are no atheists in fox holes, there are also no believers in heaven and the US has the worst social record in the developed world with the highest rates of homicide, abortion, divorce, child abuse, etc. all in the Bible Belt. At least one psychologist has proposed "fundamentalism" should be considered a mental illness and even a study done by the evangelical Bana group showed they have at least as many problems as the rest of society and no excuse for all the crap they spout about everyone else destroying the world.

God, I could go on and on about religion. Each religion also appears to strike a specific bargain according to the needs of the people. The best example I know is Taoism. In 5,000 words the Tao Te Ching goes into great detail about what exploitation looks like, how to avoid it, and what the results are if it persists. It was adopted during the Warring States period when the peasants literally had to starve themselves for hundreds of years in order to be able to afford to send their own sons off to defend them. Thus, the Chinese became famous for their extreme collectivism. They will bow and scrape with the best of them, but the minute they believe they are merely being exploited they can riot by the millions.

I see it like this - we all have a path we are walking both in life and in spirit and no two paths are alike. I personally am a Modern Spiritual Deist with an understanding of agnostics due to having a couple of agnostic friends. I do not see agnosticism as being ignorant - and if it is, then Deism is ignorant too and I'll be ignorant alongside you. A little ignorance to me simply means that I have room to learn each and every day that I live, which means I will proudly say that I am ignorant about a lot of things, spirituality included.
Abidance to you, fellow Dudeists...

Quote from: Chaplain K on June 19, 2013, 01:12:08 PM
I see it like this - we all have a path we are walking both in life and in spirit and no two paths are alike. I personally am a Modern Spiritual Deist with an understanding of agnostics due to having a couple of agnostic friends. I do not see agnosticism as being ignorant - and if it is, then Deism is ignorant too and I'll be ignorant alongside you. A little ignorance to me simply means that I have room to learn each and every day that I live, which means I will proudly say that I am ignorant about a lot of things, spirituality included.
Abidance to you, fellow Dudeists...

My ignorance is like my shadow, a part of me that follows me wherever I go. I love my shadow too even though, in and of itself, it has no mass, no energy, conveys no information, and sometimes presents silly caricatures of us. 

Quote from: wuliheron on June 19, 2013, 01:28:13 PM

My ignorance is like my shadow, a part of me that follows me wherever I go. I love my shadow too even though, in and of itself, it has no mass, no energy, conveys no information, and sometimes presents silly caricatures of us. 

Here you go dude...I would be a little surprised if you haven't already been there.
The Church of the Apathetic Agnostic

QuoteWe don't know and we don't care!

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/

Quote from: cckeiser on June 19, 2013, 01:56:53 PM
Here you go dude...I would be a little surprised if you haven't already been there.
The Church of the Apathetic Agnostic

QuoteWe don't know and we don't care!

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/

My ignorance never allows me to join a club that would have me as a member.

I'm apathetic about apathy. I've been called an "apathetic voter" too, but the only study I found anyone did on the subject showed that most so-called apathetic voters chose not to vote because they felt it would make no difference. Sure enough, when they went back and checked it wouldn't have made any difference. 

I knew the answers;
when I was so much younger,
I know Nothing now.

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, a miracle, it was beautiful, magical
And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily, joyfully, playfully, watching me
But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible, logical, responsible, practical
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable, clinical, intellectual, cynical
There are times when all the world's asleep
The questions run too deep for such a simple man
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned
I know it sounds absurd but please tell me who I am
Supertramp

To dream ... the impossible dream ...
To fight ... the unbeatable foe ...
To bear ... with unbearable sorrow ...
To run ... where the brave dare not go ...
To right ... the unrightable wrong ...
To love ... pure and chaste from afar ...
To try ... when your arms are too weary ...
To reach ... the unreachable star ...

This is my quest, to follow that star ...
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far ...
To fight for the right, without question or pause ...
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause ...

And I know if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I'm laid to my rest ...
And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach ... the unreachable star ...
Joe Darian

Only you know and I know
All the loving we've got to show
So don't refuse to believe it
By reading too many meanings

'Cause you know that I mean what I say so don't go
And never take me the wrong way
You know you can't go on getting your own way
'Cause if you do, it's gonna get you someday, yeah.

We're both here to be pleasing
Oh no, not deceiving
But it'shard to believe in, aw yeah
When you've been so mistreated.

'Cause you know that I mean what I say so don't go
And never take me the wrong way
You know you can't go on getting your own way
'Cause if you do, it's gonna get you someday.

If I seem to mislead you
It's just my craziness coming through
But when it comes down to just two
Aw, I ain't no crazier than you

'Cause you know that I mean what I say so don't go
And never take me the wrong way
You know you can't go on getting your own way
'Cause if you do, it's gonna get you someday.

Only you know and I know
Only you know and I know
Only you know and I know, oh yeah
Only you know and I know, oh yeah, get up

Dave Mason talking to himself like a crazy hippy. It's my favorite song. I sing to myself all the time. I have a very classic bluesy sound people describe as a walk in the park, but my guitar really sucks. I merely took up guitar to sing before they invented Karaoke. Hell, even after they invented Karaoke most of the machines won't allow you change the damned key and there is no way this old hippy can squeak out those crazy notes like Mickey Mouse! Beside, I can play with the timing and rhythm and do whatever the hell I want with someone's pride and joy song. Most of the crazy musicians I play with really dig my style, so there.