The Dudeism Forum

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
I think people have the right to self governance even if they are gonna fuck it up.

I might not bitch if it was only Americans fucking themselves up by it. But it's not. The US military has been killing, on average and in round numbers, 100,000 people a year every year for all of the 51 years I've been alive. Our corporations kill many thousands every year in their foreign operations, not an inconsiderable few through their support of despotic regimes who keep the local populace subdued on the corporations' behalf, and many through unsafe work environments that they know are deadly because the whole reason they offshored them in the first place was to escape US workplace safety laws. When our self governance causes that shit, then we're all to be held to account -- but we won't allow it because we don't have to. We're the mightiest nation the world has ever known.

In the US, self governance is an illusion. Our Constitution doesn't even provide for it. Sure, we get to vote on issues at the state and local level, but if the feds don't like our vote they overrule it. Here in Colorado, we legalized cannabis. The feds reserve the right to bust us anyway. We don't want fracking, but the federal government says hey, fuck you. So who's governing? Not us. The prison corporations like illegal pot, so fuck us. The corporations like killing us with impunity to get at the natural gas under our homes, so fuck us. Yay, democracy.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
If our aim is to get rid of crap that makes us stupid then I'd assume that we aim toward a condition fit for democracy eventually?

I don't think that democracy can work on this scale. My posit is that it cannot, and at any rate it obviously is not. What we have now cannot rightly be called democracy anyway. It's fascism. Not the watered down, use this word because everyone hates it variety, but fascism in the correct definition of the term.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
It just becomes intellectual fascism.

Nice term, that. I take it that it's a derogatory term for meritocracy? If so, that's a hard fucking sell, man.

We already practice meritocracy throughout our society, including within government. When the elected president convenes a commission to advise him on some specific problem domain, he is practicing meritocracy directly. When the president seeks the counsel of his appointed cabinet, he is practicing meritocracy directly. If he ignores the expert advice, as Nixon did when his first commission on marijuana recommended decriminalization and he pocketed their report, it could be argued that he is practicing despotism. When the FDA approved the sale of aspartame against the better judgment of its own scientists, it was abandoning the established meritocracy to practice fascism. We fucking rely upon that meritocracy, man! We trust the various meritocracies of government a helluva lot more than we trust our elected officials.

When you accept a promotion in your job, you are benefiting from meritocracy. When you get shitcanned for incompetence, your detriment came from meritocracy. Hopefully it was deserved. Meritocracy fucking works, man -- it's what enabled the capitalists to take over every part of the world they want to control. So what happens if we're governed by a meritocracy that's guided by benevolence and a sincere desire to advance the good of the common man rather than the greed of a wealthy few? Maybe it works almost as well for us as it has for them. It would have to work better than our sacred fucking democracy has worked for us. Democracy has utterly failed us.

Fascism? That's what we in the US are ruled by now. The corporations get everything they demand, while our Bill of Rights has been decimated and Habeas corpus suspended. Only one of the four rights ostensibly guaranteed by the First Amendment stands mostly intact, the Second is under attack, and the remaining eight are just fucking gone. But we bailed out Wall Street and the automakers, we subsidize oil companies and agribusiness and telecommunications, and we give the military-industrial complex everything it wants. That fucking Romney guy wanted to give the Pentagon even more than they wanted, more than they could spend, because their spending goes directly to the defense industry. This IS fascism.

You can be fined into bankruptcy and sentenced to five years in prison for rooting or jailbreaking your cell phone to make it work with a carrier other than the one you bought the phone from. You can be imprisoned for watching a DVD on a computer running Linux. You can lose everything you own if your kid downloads music from an unlicensed source. If an oil company poisons your water well and leaves your children permanently damaged, your wife dying of cancer, and your property practically worthless, you have zero recourse. No one owes you a dime. There is no one to sue. You're just fucked. This IS fascism.

In fascism, there is rigid authority, great nationalistic sentiment, rejection of socialism in any form, elevation of a given element of society (usually by race or religion), and total subjugation of the individual to the state. The individual becomes a tool of the state, nothing more. Tell me we're not fucking there, man. Your rights are all but completely gone, your every meaningful move is surveilled, and the surveillance is going to be augmented by tens of thousands of aerial drones by year's end. Why? There are obviously no terrorists here, and all the spooks have managed to round up are a few mentally deficient and disturbed individuals they've managed to entrap. So why look so intently at the rest of us? Could it be that we are all now merely tools of the state who can not be allowed to step off of an increasingly narrow line?

This fascism exists because of the confluence of the three things Americans hold most dear: Capitalism, religion, and democracy. It might seem unfair to include religion, since it seems that its major contribution is just enabling people to remain ignorant and avoid rational thought, but it goes deeper than that. American evangelical christianity fully supports our fascism. It suits their agenda: They want to BE the government, and just like the capitalists, they want to rule the world. The dominionists' wet dream cannot happen without capitalist support, and the capitalist agenda of world financial domination cannot be achieved without the popular (unthinking) support that only the church can deliver.

Everyone asks, when dealing with a capitalist, "What's in it for me?". So the capitalists can't deal with the people directly except to sell them shit. The people would want to get paid. But with the church in there telling people that social programs are evil and riches are a reward delivered by god, the rich get a free hand. Can't be fucking with god's chosen people, ya know.

The Jesus of the New Testament was down with poor people, and counseled the rich that if they didn't give all of their shit, literally all of it, to the poor, they could not be his disciples and would be barred from entry into heaven. But today's evangelical preachers preach exactly the opposite. Gee, I wonder why. I mean, shit, the same words have been in their book since it was translated to English. It's not even open to interpretation. Much of that book is malleable, but those parts in which Jeebus says give all your shit to the poor are not. They're unambiguous. The preachers have gone off the page. Why? What on Earth could convince a fucking preacher, of all people, to drop that book on the floor and completely ignore the teachings of the guy his religion is named after?

Wealth and power, man, wealth and power. The only reasons western religion exists.

Sorry came late into this conversation.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 08:05:32 AM
So Zeus is still relevant.
Who knew.

As a practicing pagan myself, yes!

meekon5 Dudeist Pagan.

Also can I be particular in insisting there be a division between christianity (as an enforced state approved religious point of view) and other religions (or religious points of view).

I spent a lot of my youth studying various religious points of view and eventually formulated my present (ongoing, flexible) point of view on the way things are.

Quote from: RighteousDude on February 27, 2013, 11:25:13 PM

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
I think people have the right to self governance even if they are gonna fuck it up.

I might not bitch if it was only Americans fucking themselves up by it. But it's not. The US military has been killing, on average and in round numbers, 100,000 people a year every year for all of the 51 years I've been alive. Our corporations kill many thousands every year in their foreign operations, not an inconsiderable few through their support of despotic regimes who keep the local populace subdued on the corporations' behalf, and many through unsafe work environments that they know are deadly because the whole reason they offshored them in the first place was to escape US workplace safety laws. When our self governance causes that shit, then we're all to be held to account -- but we won't allow it because we don't have to. We're the mightiest nation the world has ever known.

In the US, self governance is an illusion. Our Constitution doesn't even provide for it. Sure, we get to vote on issues at the state and local level, but if the feds don't like our vote they overrule it. Here in Colorado, we legalized cannabis. The feds reserve the right to bust us anyway. We don't want fracking, but the federal government says hey, fuck you. So who's governing? Not us. The prison corporations like illegal pot, so fuck us. The corporations like killing us with impunity to get at the natural gas under our homes, so fuck us. Yay, democracy.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
If our aim is to get rid of crap that makes us stupid then I'd assume that we aim toward a condition fit for democracy eventually?

I don't think that democracy can work on this scale. My posit is that it cannot, and at any rate it obviously is not. What we have now cannot rightly be called democracy anyway. It's fascism. Not the watered down, use this word because everyone hates it variety, but fascism in the correct definition of the term.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
It just becomes intellectual fascism.

Nice term, that. I take it that it's a derogatory term for meritocracy? If so, that's a hard fucking sell, man.

We already practice meritocracy throughout our society, including within government. When the elected president convenes a commission to advise him on some specific problem domain, he is practicing meritocracy directly. When the president seeks the counsel of his appointed cabinet, he is practicing meritocracy directly. If he ignores the expert advice, as Nixon did when his first commission on marijuana recommended decriminalization and he pocketed their report, it could be argued that he is practicing despotism. When the FDA approved the sale of aspartame against the better judgment of its own scientists, it was abandoning the established meritocracy to practice fascism. We fucking rely upon that meritocracy, man! We trust the various meritocracies of government a helluva lot more than we trust our elected officials.

When you accept a promotion in your job, you are benefiting from meritocracy. When you get shitcanned for incompetence, your detriment came from meritocracy. Hopefully it was deserved. Meritocracy fucking works, man -- it's what enabled the capitalists to take over every part of the world they want to control. So what happens if we're governed by a meritocracy that's guided by benevolence and a sincere desire to advance the good of the common man rather than the greed of a wealthy few? Maybe it works almost as well for us as it has for them. It would have to work better than our sacred fucking democracy has worked for us. Democracy has utterly failed us.

Fascism? That's what we in the US are ruled by now. The corporations get everything they demand, while our Bill of Rights has been decimated and Habeas corpus suspended. Only one of the four rights ostensibly guaranteed by the First Amendment stands mostly intact, the Second is under attack, and the remaining eight are just fucking gone. But we bailed out Wall Street and the automakers, we subsidize oil companies and agribusiness and telecommunications, and we give the military-industrial complex everything it wants. That fucking Romney guy wanted to give the Pentagon even more than they wanted, more than they could spend, because their spending goes directly to the defense industry. This IS fascism.

You can be fined into bankruptcy and sentenced to five years in prison for rooting or jailbreaking your cell phone to make it work with a carrier other than the one you bought the phone from. You can be imprisoned for watching a DVD on a computer running Linux. You can lose everything you own if your kid downloads music from an unlicensed source. If an oil company poisons your water well and leaves your children permanently damaged, your wife dying of cancer, and your property practically worthless, you have zero recourse. No one owes you a dime. There is no one to sue. You're just fucked. This IS fascism.

In fascism, there is rigid authority, great nationalistic sentiment, rejection of socialism in any form, elevation of a given element of society (usually by race or religion), and total subjugation of the individual to the state. The individual becomes a tool of the state, nothing more. Tell me we're not fucking there, man. Your rights are all but completely gone, your every meaningful move is surveilled, and the surveillance is going to be augmented by tens of thousands of aerial drones by year's end. Why? There are obviously no terrorists here, and all the spooks have managed to round up are a few mentally deficient and disturbed individuals they've managed to entrap. So why look so intently at the rest of us? Could it be that we are all now merely tools of the state who can not be allowed to step off of an increasingly narrow line?

This fascism exists because of the confluence of the three things Americans hold most dear: Capitalism, religion, and democracy. It might seem unfair to include religion, since it seems that its major contribution is just enabling people to remain ignorant and avoid rational thought, but it goes deeper than that. American evangelical christianity fully supports our fascism. It suits their agenda: They want to BE the government, and just like the capitalists, they want to rule the world. The dominionists' wet dream cannot happen without capitalist support, and the capitalist agenda of world financial domination cannot be achieved without the popular (unthinking) support that only the church can deliver.

Everyone asks, when dealing with a capitalist, "What's in it for me?". So the capitalists can't deal with the people directly except to sell them shit. The people would want to get paid. But with the church in there telling people that social programs are evil and riches are a reward delivered by god, the rich get a free hand. Can't be fucking with god's chosen people, ya know.

The Jesus of the New Testament was down with poor people, and counseled the rich that if they didn't give all of their shit, literally all of it, to the poor, they could not be his disciples and would be barred from entry into heaven. But today's evangelical preachers preach exactly the opposite. Gee, I wonder why. I mean, shit, the same words have been in their book since it was translated to English. It's not even open to interpretation. Much of that book is malleable, but those parts in which Jeebus says give all your shit to the poor are not. They're unambiguous. The preachers have gone off the page. Why? What on Earth could convince a fucking preacher, of all people, to drop that book on the floor and completely ignore the teachings of the guy his religion is named after?

Wealth and power, man, wealth and power. The only reasons western religion exists.

That's a lot of words dude!

Yes a lot of words.
I believe in freedom. Freedom is IMHO impossible without self governance.
It being difficult of seeming impossible does nothing to change the charge that we work toward.

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Yeah I know the "creator" thing.
It means nothing. The fact that a belief in Alchemy was wide spread at that time has as much relevance.
Times change but the basic principle remains with or without a "creator".

Giving your consent to be governed is saying that you are a slave but you're okay about it.

Not really into that S&M stuff myself but each to their own.

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 08:06:01 AM
Giving your consent to be governed is saying that you are a slave but you're okay about it.

Not really into that S&M stuff myself but each to their own.

No because you are the government in that context.
These are revolutionary beliefs. By that I mean they literally came about at the time of many real revolutions.
In the vacuum of power the decision was that government would be by the people, for the people and of the people. Some of that comes through the vote (very little IMO) and the rest through principles expressed in the constitution and laws. This is why we don't have things like segregation even if the majority of people in a given area support it. It is inherently unconstitutional. The principles are meant to safeguard the rights of individuals and as an extension minority opinion. The right to self governance through representation tempered by principles.
It is a difficult balance for sure but that's the gig.
We have the right in the US to bear arms. But the government has the right to pass laws about the specifics.
The government can not "disarm" the citizenry but they can tell people that they can't build a nuclear weapon in their basement. And if people disagree about the specifics they can exercise the right to free speech and vote for representatives who share their opinions.
If the "system" breaks down (it's at a low for sure due to undue pressure from monied interests IMO) then I don't believe you throw out the "system". You fix the problem.
Disliking the government as inefficient and not representative enough is very different from disliking the form of government.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 28, 2013, 08:41:40 AM

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 08:06:01 AM
Giving your consent to be governed is saying that you are a slave but you're okay about it.

Not really into that S&M stuff myself but each to their own.

No because you are the government in that context.
These are revolutionary beliefs. By that I mean they literally came about at the time of many real revolutions.
In the vacuum of power the decision was that government would be by the people, for the people and of the people. Some of that comes through the vote (very little IMO) and the rest through principles expressed in the constitution and laws. This is why we don't have things like segregation even if the majority of people in a given area support it. It is inherently unconstitutional. The principles are meant to safeguard the rights of individuals and as an extension minority opinion. The right to self governance through representation tempered by principles.
It is a difficult balance for sure but that's the gig.
We have the right in the US to bear arms. But the government has the right to pass laws about the specifics.
The government can not "disarm" the citizenry but they can tell people that they can't build a nuclear weapon in their basement. And if people disagree about the specifics they can exercise the right to free speech and vote for representatives who share their opinions.
If the "system" breaks down (it's at a low for sure due to undue pressure from monied interests IMO) then I don't believe you throw out the "system". You fix the problem.
Disliking the government as inefficient and not representative enough is very different from disliking the form of government.

Slaves dude. Velvet chains - but still slaves

Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

Well, dude, we just don't, but a thought...

A person who has the freedom to own a gun is a citizen, a person without the freedom to own a gun is a subject and a slave.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on February 28, 2013, 09:58:47 AM

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

Well, dude, we just don't, but a thought...

A person who has the freedom to own a gun is a citizen, a person without the freedom to own a gun is a subject and a slave.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The gun is just a comfort blanket dude. Makes you feel safe while you're being shafted.

don't follow leeders, watch your parkin meeders

and as for 'a well regulated militia'.....................yeah sure!

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

I assume your chanting will be alleviating that situation soon then?

Quote from: BikerDude on February 28, 2013, 10:55:13 AM

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

I assume your chanting will be alleviating that situation soon then?

that's right dude - free your mind and the rest follows

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on February 28, 2013, 09:58:47 AM

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

Well, dude, we just don't, but a thought...

A person who has the freedom to own a gun is a citizen, a person without the freedom to own a gun is a subject and a slave.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Most important is that it is a guiding principle.
I don't think that a person with or without a gun is a slave unless they have or don't have one against their will.
It's not truly a relevant fact in that equation.
We have the right to bear arms. that is codified into the constitution.
No one is actually planning on changing that irregardless of the near psychotic ramblings of Wayne LaPeirre.

The entire question goes back to the same difficult equation balancing personal liberty with social responsibility.

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 11:00:21 AM

Quote from: BikerDude on February 28, 2013, 10:55:13 AM

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on February 28, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Giving citizens the right to bear arms is like giving an eight-year-old the right to hold an 'action man' whilst he's fucked in the ass by a government-sponsored pederast.

I assume your chanting will be alleviating that situation soon then?

that's right dude - free your mind and the rest follows

Quote
I just came home from Vietnam where I spent twelve months of my
life trying to pacify the population. We couldn?t do it; their resistance
was amazing. And it was wrong; the process made me sick. So I
came home to join the resistance in my own country, and I find you
guys have pacified yourselves. That too amazes me; that too makes
me sick...
- Vietnam Veteran Against the War, 1970-

Quote from: meekon5 on February 28, 2013, 06:59:35 AM
Sorry came late into this conversation.

Quote from: BikerDude on February 27, 2013, 08:05:32 AM
So Zeus is still relevant.
Who knew.

As a practicing pagan myself, yes!

meekon5 Dudeist Pagan.

Also can I be particular in insisting there be a division between christianity (as an enforced state approved religious point of view) and other religions (or religious points of view).

I spent a lot of my youth studying various religious points of view and eventually formulated my present (ongoing, flexible) point of view on the way things are.

LMFAO!!!
Only on this board could I ask the question "Is Zeus relevant"  and have the answer be yes.
Carry on.
And may Thor spare you from his bolts from Olympus.