The Dudeism Forum

I consider myself fundamentally Dude. That is to say that I have always put the taking it easy (or in my case more specifically work in order to party) ethos foremost.

But I have to admit that I have an ongoing difficulty with the idea of a philosophy based on the character of the Dude.
I can't get past a lot of stuff about the character.

When it's said and done the Dude didn't avoid conflict because of any moral compass. I'm sorry I see no indication of that at all.
When the Nihilist set out to "fock him opp". He was a pussy. Plain and simple. There was no philosophy to it.
Walter was the real Dude.

He doesn't have a philosophical commitment to taking it easy. He's just lazy.
He's just the character that he is portraid as. An old former Hippie.
And the reason why we saw the peace movement and pacifism hit an all time high during the Vietnam war (no matter how loathsome the war was) is just because most hippies were chicken shit.
I mean objecting to a wrongful war is fine but where did all the pacifism and love go once the war was over? It certainly seemed to contract pretty quickly.
He is the ironic archetype for a generation. A phony.
Likeable enough but in the end there was no philosophical anything to the character.
That said I could probably smoke a J at a concert of roll a few with him.
But in the end he could have used at least some small measure of genuine Walter.
Everybody has to have some Walter to them when the chips are down or there just is no white washing it.

A well written essay, B Dude.

Quotebecause most hippies were chicken shit.

Really?

There's a fucking interesting book you should read called "Chickenhawk" Written by an Robert Mason an American Huey Pilot.

He called the book "Chickenhawk" Because they were chicken but they flew hawks!

http://www.robertcmason.com/textdocs/chickenhawk1-4.pdf

The above is a sampler.

This guy was hippie and a coward by his own admission.

I'd call him a fucking hero and and superb example of a human being.

Each to his own I guess.

Peace dude

QuoteHe is the ironic archetype for a generation. A phony.

I don't get that accusation.  To me, being a phony implies dishonesty because you're putting forward something that is untrue, something that is intentionally deceitful.  Sorry dude, I don't see it.

Yeah, I don't get it either. The Dude wasn't chickenshit with the Nihilists. He was pragmatic. A few bucks to avoid a fight? Surely if they were coming at him every day demanding his lunch money then he'd have to fight, but it was such an easy way out.

The point is that the Dude may have been an idealist in his youth (as most of us are) but he learned how complex and frustrating the conflicting imperatives of so many people can be. And so he is resigned to choosing his battles carefully. In many cases they are not worth fighting.

This is the same conclusion reached by many of the world's great philosophers. Interestingly, two great works of enlightenment era thinking were published at the same time with the same basic story and the same basic conclusion: Voltaire's Candide and Johnson's Rasselas.

And even in more aggressive philosophies like Nietzsche we can find shades of the Dude - that it is truly heroic to be one's honest self, regardless of what the prevailing mythos may dictate. The Dude wasn't great because he was lazy, but because he had the courage to be lazy in a culture that puts too much importance on cowboy/military/commercial aggression.

The Dude (and Dudeism) is a lot more subtle than it may seem at face value. I think that's why a lot of people who are hard working and ambitious still admire the Dude but don't exactly know why. It's because he's a true individual. Highly flawed and imperfect, but far freer than most of us.

I mean objecting to a wrongful war is fine but where did all the pacifism and love go once the war was over? It certainly seemed to contract pretty quickly.

The war ended in 1976. The height of the "hippy movement" was in the late 60's.

The pacifism didn't disappear, it moved on to trying to stop nuclear war...it moved on to trying to stop poverty.

The peace war is ongoing and is peacing on many fronts...but the killing wars go on I'm afraid.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 24, 2012, 07:43:07 PM
I consider myself fundamentally Dude. That is to say that I have always put the taking it easy (or in my case more specifically work in order to party) ethos foremost.

But I have to admit that I have an ongoing difficulty with the idea of a philosophy based on the character of the Dude.
I can't get past a lot of stuff about the character.

When it's said and done the Dude didn't avoid conflict because of any moral compass. I'm sorry I see no indication of that at all.
When the Nihilist set out to "fock him opp". He was a pussy. Plain and simple. There was no philosophy to it.
Walter was the real Dude.

He doesn't have a philosophical commitment to taking it easy. He's just lazy.
He's just the character that he is portraid as. An old former Hippie.
And the reason why we saw the peace movement and pacifism hit an all time high during the Vietnam war (no matter how loathsome the war was) is just because most hippies were chicken shit.
I mean objecting to a wrongful war is fine but where did all the pacifism and love go once the war was over? It certainly seemed to contract pretty quickly.
He is the ironic archetype for a generation. A phony.
Likeable enough but in the end there was no philosophical anything to the character.
That said I could probably smoke a J at a concert of roll a few with him.
But in the end he could have used at least some small measure of genuine Walter.
Everybody has to have some Walter to them when the chips are down or there just is no white washing it.

The Dude found a path of relating that was beyond pull-push (need-rejection). He had very little fear - even when facing an aggressive police chief or having his head pushed down a bog. Most of us are dominated by needs (approval, success, sex, acknowledgemnet etc' etc'). The Dude took love, sex and what have you when it came his way but he didn't have greed and need for it.

On the push side of things most of us reject because of: fear of intimacy, committment, other people's needs, avoiding the pain of them rejecting us etc' etc' but The Dude didn't push away. Even if someone was a complete 'asshole' he still loved them. He dealt with sexual provocation, aggression, idiocy and what have you without loosing his centre. For me the character is an inspiration.

When the chips were down Walter had courage but he was also greedy, angry and super-needy (his attachment to his ex-wife). I find him easy to identify with - he is the self I want to grow out of.

Quote from: Caesar dude on September 24, 2012, 09:32:55 PM
I mean objecting to a wrongful war is fine but where did all the pacifism and love go once the war was over? It certainly seemed to contract pretty quickly.

The war ended in 1976. The height of the "hippy movement" was in the late 60's.

The pacifism didn't disappear, it moved on to trying to stop nuclear war...it moved on to trying to stop poverty.

The peace war is ongoing and is peacing on many fronts...but the killing wars go on I'm afraid.

The last US troops left Vietnam in 1973 after over a year of drastic reductions.

Agree it didn't disappear. It became a sliver of what it was when people were likely to be drafted.
Your point is that it became Anti Nuclear protests and fighting poverty?
I don't much sign of progress.
In my experience I'll tell you what it became. Exactly what the 70's and 80's were.
The ME generation. The height of shallow materialism.

I'll go further.

We start with the rug pissers.
They shove the Dudes head in a toilet then while he sits there dripping the pee on the rug.
'IE' the Dude is the rug. He just sits there and gets pissed on.
Next scene he says that the rug "tied the room together" while talking to Walter and Donnie.
Walter continually says "shut the fuck up Donnie". The only reason that Donnie and Walter seem to be associated is a common relationship with the Dude. The Dude ties them together.
The rug is the Dude. Is just lays there and gets pissed on.

Quote from: Hominid on September 24, 2012, 09:02:17 PM

QuoteHe is the ironic archetype for a generation. A phony.

I don't get that accusation.  To me, being a phony implies dishonesty because you're putting forward something that is untrue, something that is intentionally deceitful.  Sorry dude, I don't see it.

OK point taken Phoney doesn't apply.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 25, 2012, 08:06:15 AM
I'll go further.

We start with the rug pissers.
They shove the Dudes head in a toilet then while he sits there dripping the pee on the rug.
'IE' the Dude is the rug. He just sits there and gets pissed on.
Next scene he says that the rug "tied the room together" while talking to Walter and Donnie.
Walter continually says "shut the fuck up Donnie". The only reason that Donnie and Walter seem to be associated is a common relationship with the Dude. The Dude ties them together.
The rug is the Dude. Is just lays there and gets pissed on.

Two against one.  I'd sit there too. Pacifism or aggression are two options best dictated by the circumstances...

QuoteYeah, I don't get it either. The Dude wasn't chickenshit with the Nihilists. He was pragmatic. A few bucks to avoid a fight? Surely if they were coming at him every day demanding his lunch money then he'd have to fight, but it was such an easy way out.

The fact that he squealed like like a little bitch didn't help.
I don't think it's just ironic when Donnie asks the Dude why he needs his Johnson.'
I really think that the movie implies the limitations of the hippie ethos.
It just doesn't work on rug pissers and nihilists. And in fact when confronted by them it's shown to be a sham.

Quote
The point is that the Dude may have been an idealist in his youth (as most of us are) but he learned how complex and frustrating the conflicting imperatives of so many people can be. And so he is resigned to choosing his battles carefully. In many cases they are not worth fighting.

I don't think he was an idealist. I think he spent his time occupying various administration building and smoking tie stick. He followed the crowd.

Quote
This is the same conclusion reached by many of the world's great philosophers. Interestingly, two great works of enlightenment era thinking were published at the same time with the same basic story and the same basic conclusion: Voltaire's Candide and Johnson's Rasselas.

That's fine but I don't think he reached a conclusion. I think his knee jerk reaction was to give in not as a philosophical decision but as a coward. Walter said "what's mine is mine"

Quote
And even in more aggressive philosophies like Nietzsche we can find shades of the Dude - that it is truly heroic to be one's honest self, regardless of what the prevailing mythos may dictate. The Dude wasn't great because he was lazy, but because he had the courage to be lazy in a culture that puts too much importance on cowboy/military/commercial aggression.

It wasn't courage or a decision to be lazy.

Quote
The Dude (and Dudeism) is a lot more subtle than it may seem at face value. I think that's why a lot of people who are hard working and ambitious still admire the Dude but don't exactly know why. It's because he's a true individual. Highly flawed and imperfect, but far freer than most of us.

A lot of people like the Dude. He ties the room together. He's unthreatening.
I don't believe that a lot of people admire him. I think he's amusing.
The scene with Jackie Treehorn is a perfect example. In the end Jackie finds him amusing but basically a clown.
In fact I really dig Jackie Treehorn. Except for the rug pisser thing. If it wasn't for that then I'd say he is the guy that I admire. He is successful on his own terms. He has one hell of a party and he's got lots of money and he has it by not selling out. He made it outside the straight nine to five. Admittedly as a known pornographer but I don't have a problem with it.

QuoteYeah, I don't get it either. The Dude wasn't chickenshit with the Nihilists. He was pragmatic. A few bucks to avoid a fight? Surely if they were coming at him every day demanding his lunch money then he'd have to fight, but it was such an easy way out.

The fact that he squealed like like a little bitch didn't help.
I don't think it's just ironic when Donnie asks the Dude why he needs his Johnson.'
I really think that the movie implies the limitations of the hippie ethos.
I think that is the point. I think it is meant to. Not to champion it.
It just doesn't work on rug pissers and nihilists. And in fact when confronted by them it's shown to be a sham.

Quote
The point is that the Dude may have been an idealist in his youth (as most of us are) but he learned how complex and frustrating the conflicting imperatives of so many people can be. And so he is resigned to choosing his battles carefully. In many cases they are not worth fighting.

I don't think he was an idealist. I think he spent his time occupying various administration buildings and smoking tie stick. He followed the crowd.
That is what probably hmmmm 50, 60 percent of the hippies did. In my experience.

Quote
This is the same conclusion reached by many of the world's great philosophers. Interestingly, two great works of enlightenment era thinking were published at the same time with the same basic story and the same basic conclusion: Voltaire's Candide and Johnson's Rasselas.

That's fine but I don't think he reached a conclusion. I think his knee jerk reaction was to give in not as a philosophical decision but as a coward. Walter said "what's mine is mine"
The Dude simply lacked the backbone to stand up for himself.

Quote
And even in more aggressive philosophies like Nietzsche we can find shades of the Dude - that it is truly heroic to be one's honest self, regardless of what the prevailing mythos may dictate. The Dude wasn't great because he was lazy, but because he had the courage to be lazy in a culture that puts too much importance on cowboy/military/commercial aggression.

It wasn't courage or a decision to be lazy.

Quote
The Dude (and Dudeism) is a lot more subtle than it may seem at face value. I think that's why a lot of people who are hard working and ambitious still admire the Dude but don't exactly know why. It's because he's a true individual. Highly flawed and imperfect, but far freer than most of us.

A lot of people like the Dude. He ties the room together. He's unthreatening.
In that light what he is is his own business. He's easy to get along with.
I don't believe that a lot of people admire him. I think he's amusing.
The scene with Jackie Treehorn is a perfect example. In the end Jackie finds him amusing but basically a clown.
In fact I really dig Jackie Treehorn. Except for the rug pisser thing. If it wasn't for that then I'd say he is the guy that I admire. He is successful on his own terms. He has one hell of a party and he's got lots of money and he has it by not selling out. He made it outside the straight nine to five. Admittedly as a known pornographer but I don't have a problem with it.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 25, 2012, 08:06:15 AM
I'll go further.

We start with the rug pissers.
They shove the Dudes head in a toilet then while he sits there dripping the pee on the rug.
'IE' the Dude is the rug. He just sits there and gets pissed on.
Next scene he says that the rug "tied the room together" while talking to Walter and Donnie.
Walter continually says "shut the fuck up Donnie". The only reason that Donnie and Walter seem to be associated is a common relationship with the Dude. The Dude ties them together.
The rug is the Dude. Is just lays there and gets pissed on.

Sure the The Dude gets pissed on. He transcends it by not reacting. It washes off.

Quote from: Boston Rockbury on September 25, 2012, 08:40:49 AM

Quote from: BikerDude on September 25, 2012, 08:06:15 AM
I'll go further.

We start with the rug pissers.
They shove the Dudes head in a toilet then while he sits there dripping the pee on the rug.
'IE' the Dude is the rug. He just sits there and gets pissed on.
Next scene he says that the rug "tied the room together" while talking to Walter and Donnie.
Walter continually says "shut the fuck up Donnie". The only reason that Donnie and Walter seem to be associated is a common relationship with the Dude. The Dude ties them together.
The rug is the Dude. Is just lays there and gets pissed on.

Sure the The Dude gets pissed on. He transcends it by not reacting. It washes off.

You disgust me.
Piss on you then.
But that's just an opinion.