The Dudeism Forum

So why are they trying to change things? What are they saying are the benefits?

I believe Obamacare is quite similar to the NHS in the UK in many ways. However, the president et. al. are not exempt.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/12/08/congress-exempted-from-obamacare/ (note that Forbes is far from a leftist journal)

For some reason this has become an incredibly polarizing issue in the states. I haven't investigated it enough to have a definitive opinion, but I'm inclined to think it's a step in the right direction. It's true that it's possible to "game the system" by going to the emergency room whenever you have a problem (where they can't refuse you), but on the whole, this is an untenable way of seeking proper healthcare. Also, I believe the cost of healthcare in the States is vastly higher than in the UK. 20,000 dollars a day in hospital is probably the world's highest (that figure is from personal experience, not sure if it's the norm). Before Obamacare everyone agreed that our system was fucked. The difference is that the right thinks that we're even more fucked now and the left thinks we're fixing it.

I'm a bit bewildered by the hatred evinced towards Obama on the right. I don't see that Obama is any more of a big government proponent than Bush was. What's more, these are extraordinary times - what with the housing crunch, the Libor scandal, etc. I've been forced to revise my own Libertarian views. It seems that this may be a time when we need more regulation in certain areas, not less. But I don't know. It's all so confusing. Most of us seem to react with our gut. But in absence of more credible and reliable frames of reference, that's about all we have.

I think that there should be more hard science applied to economics to try and see what works. Sometimes it seems like people are religious about their politics because it's impossible to be rational and scientific about it. We need an economic Copernicus to come around and revolutionize the field the same way Evolutionary Psych revolutionized the formerly crap field of Psychology in the 90s (which I studied, to my dismay, in the 80s at university).

No offense to the esteemed and prolific DB. Just weighing in with my own two bits. I could be wrong about a lot of this.

Quote from: forumdude on August 06, 2012, 04:23:30 AM
I believe Obamacare is quite similar to the NHS in the UK in many ways. However, the president et. al. are not exempt.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/12/08/congress-exempted-from-obamacare/ (note that Forbes is far from a leftist journal)

Good points (and good article), Dudely lama, but it looks like we are dealing with conflicting information out there as to whether or not the Prez and the gang in Congress are exempt, and "exempt" can mean a lot of things. I think at this point it is all food for thought and grounds for further research. I was looking at this...

"President Obama declared that the new health care law ?is going to be affecting every American family.? Except his own, of course."

Ref. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/23/obamacare-for-everyone-but-obama/

"On page 157 of the Democrats' health bill that President Obama signed into law on Tuesday, March 23rd, a provision mandates that Members of Congress and their staff purchase insurance within the health insurance exchanges, but the President, Vice President and Executive Branch appointees are curiously exempt from participation in the new exchanges."

Ref. http://www.burgessforcongress.com/should-obama-be-exempt-from-obamacare

The word "exempt" is riff with possible newspeak I guess and a candidate word for one hell of a spin!

The facts may lay here in the words "specifically" and "can" ...

Lie #14: If the healthcare bill is so good then why does Congress exempt themselves from the bill?

TRUTH: As Think Progress explains, the House bill "does not specifically exempt federal employees ? who receive coverage through the Federal Employees Health Benefits (FEHB) Program ? from enrolling in the new public plan. Rather, the legislation treats the American government ? the largest employer in the country ? like any other large employer: it can (but doesn't have to) enroll its employees in the Exchange (where they can choose a public health insurance option) after a period of 2 years."

Ref. http://ourfuture.org/healthcare/healthreformfactcheck

It may be like a friend of mine often says "The big print giveth and the small print taketh away."

Is this, ahh, what day is this?.....

Which brings to mind P.J. O'Rourke's famous quote:

"Government is so tedious that sometimes you wonder if the government isn't being boring on purpose. Maybe they're trying to put us to sleep so we won't notice what they're doing. Every aspect of our existence is affected by government, so naturally we want to keep an eye on the thing. Yet whenever we regular citizens try to read a book on government or watch one of those TV public affairs programs about government or listen to anything anybody who's in the government is saying, we feel like high-school students who've fallen two weeks behind in their algebra class. .... This could be intentional. Our government could be attempting to establish a Dictatorship of Boredom in this country. The last person left awake gets to spend all the tax money."

by the way, i serendipitously stumbled across this book a few minutes ago. could be a step in the right direction for a copernican revolution in economics: http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374275637

Quote from: forumdude on August 06, 2012, 05:19:11 AM
Which brings to mind P.J. O'Rourke's famous quote:

"Government is so tedious that sometimes you wonder if the government isn't being boring on purpose. Maybe they're trying to put us to sleep so we won't notice what they're doing. Every aspect of our existence is affected by government, so naturally we want to keep an eye on the thing. Yet whenever we regular citizens try to read a book on government or watch one of those TV public affairs programs about government or listen to anything anybody who's in the government is saying, we feel like high-school students who've fallen two weeks behind in their algebra class. .... This could be intentional. Our government could be attempting to establish a Dictatorship of Boredom in this country. The last person left awake gets to spend all the tax money."

by the way, i serendipitously stumbled across this book a few minutes ago. could be a step in the right direction for a copernican revolution in economics: http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374275637

Sounds like the French who said (maybe they didn't say it, but either way) "we get the government we deserve."

Daniel Kahneman's book sounds interesting, will have to check it out.

This is the least-partisan website I could find (Cheney quoted it in a debate against John Edwards):
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/01/congress-exempt-from-health-bill/

I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been addressed by more major sites like Time or Newsweek. A google search turns up mostly blogs and partisan rants.

QuoteNo, actually, anyone can go to any county hospital virtually anywhere in the US and get healthcare they need and always any emergency care. Also, there are free clients in just about any community if you need help and can't afford it.

Do they then need to pay for that healthcare once they are fixed?

QuoteAlso, there are free clients in just about any community if you need help and can't afford it.

Cos that statement seems to contradict the first.

If I'm knocked over  by a truck in the UK then they rush me to an NHS hospital....if I'm poor I get serviced the same way as if I'm rich..... If I'm rich and have private health care then it is mine or my families option to move me to the private health care system...which may or may not have better facilities to look after my needs!

I'm still confused! Doh.

Quote from: forumdude on August 06, 2012, 07:42:51 AM
This is the least-partisan website I could find (Cheney quoted it in a debate against John Edwards):
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/01/congress-exempt-from-health-bill/

I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been addressed by more major sites like Time or Newsweek. A google search turns up mostly blogs and partisan rants.

I think the "exempt" thing may be coming from the high degree of choices Congress has that the average Joe doesn't have. Meaning Congress has so many health care options (not to mention health care that ultimately is paid for by tax payers) that they are not affected by the requirements of the bill most people will be affected by. Exempt or not, my guess is that members of Congress will not have the same burden placed on them that the average person has to deal with.

Quotemy guess is that members of Congress will not have the same burden placed on them that the average person has to deal with.

But that's a standard....regardless of what we're discussing here! Members of congress have far far more money that the average guy in the street...all politicians the world over have more money than than the average householder.

So of course there will be no burden on them...there never is! But that is not the point or the issue.

As I have said many times and stated before and in front of politicians....the fact you want to become a politician should immediately bar you form becoming one! The same goes for senators and Prime Ministers.

It's corrupt dude....all the way down to the turtles.... 

Quote from: Caesar dude on August 06, 2012, 07:52:17 PM

Quotemy guess is that members of Congress will not have the same burden placed on them that the average person has to deal with.

But that's a standard....regardless of what we're discussing here! Members of congress have far far more money that the average guy in the street...all politicians the world over have more money than than the average householder.

So of course there will be no burden on them...there never is! But that is not the point or the issue.

As I have said many times and stated before and in front of politicians....the fact you want to become a politician should immediately bar you form becoming one! The same goes for senators and Prime Ministers.

It's corrupt dude....all the way down to the turtles.... 

CONGRATS ON YOUR 1000th POST Caesar dude!!!!

It's pretty much a joke.  Because of the Obamacare thing, a lot of private individual insurance plans only cover preventative care.  If you get sick, its out of pocket pay.  Kinda defeats the purpose of having health insurance if you ask me.  That's just my opinion

Thank you DB!

I seriously wish I could help her to conceive!!!

Peace to you all.... 1000 posts of pure nonsense! Wow what a way to slack!

Congratulations Caesar dude!
A worthy fucking achievement!