Greetings,
First, I love what you have done. I read and laugh out loud. Thank you & keep it up.
I have a problem with Sarah Silverman being listed as a great dude role model.
I had heard of her but never heard her perform, so I checked out a sample on YouTube. I found her routine to be mean spirited and racist - I don't go for that.
The Dude may have had some faults, but being mean spirited and racist was not among them.
I find her very un-Dude and request that she be removed from the list - maybe replace her with Nelson Mandela.
I did like the "I'm fucking Mat Damon" song, but the dude did not rub the big lebowski's nose in the rug he stole. very un-dude...
we've fielded a lot of criticism for honoring sarah silverman as a great dude in history. let me address a few points:
she's clearly not racist - she's being supremely ironic, playing a stereotype of an odious, spoiled brat to make a point. but if you watch interviews with her she's extremely dudeish - openminded and easygoing and remarkably wise.
the i'm fucking matt damon song was certainly not meant to be taken seriously. her boyfriend jimmy kimmel countered with a "i'm fucking ben affleck" song. her humor is dark and knowing like that of the coen brothers. only not nearly as subtle.
however, i must admit that it is hard to find standout female dudes out there. we've got a couple lined up for great dude in history column in the dudespaper - maude from harold and maude and the main character from mike leigh's film "happy go lucky" among them. we put in sarah because frankly we couldn't think of that many female dudeist saints when we first scribbled down that list.
if enough people insist that sarah silverman doesn't adequately represent the dude faith then we'll consider removing her. however, give her a chance - she really seems to be the exact opposite of the character she portrays in her act.
please suggest other female great dudes if you know any. what about anais nin? eleanor roosevelt?
I honestly know almost nothing about Sarah Silverman, but it's true that it's quite difficult to find female dudes. I don't want to be sexist so I won't give an explanation, ;D , but I guess it's the same female ratio that there is between dudeist priests. Maybe taking it easy is more difficult for females.
Anyhow I don't think Mandela is a good example of Dudeness, look at what's happening in South Africa. They passed out of the frying pan into the fire. Just to give an example these days rapes are so common that if ever caught a rapist has only to pay a small fine for the crime. And of course the other crimes follow the same line.
What about Mother Theresa? Or Aung San Suu Kyi?
Quote from: forumdude on October 10, 2009, 01:26:30 AM
we've fielded a lot of criticism for honoring sarah silverman as a great dude in history. let me address a few points:
she's clearly not racist - she's being supremely ironic, playing a stereotype of an odious, spoiled brat to make a point. but if you watch interviews with her she's extremely dudeish - openminded and easygoing and remarkably wise.
the i'm fucking matt damon song was certainly not meant to be taken seriously. her boyfriend jimmy kimmel countered with a "i'm fucking ben affleck" song. her humor is dark and knowing like that of the coen brothers. only not nearly as subtle.
however, i must admit that it is hard to find standout female dudes out there. we've got a couple lined up for great dude in history column in the dudespaper - maude from harold and maude and the main character from mike leigh's film "happy go lucky" among them. we put in sarah because frankly we couldn't think of that many female dudeist saints when we first scribbled down that list.
if enough people insist that sarah silverman doesn't adequately represent the dude faith then we'll consider removing her. however, give her a chance - she really seems to be the exact opposite of the character she portrays in her act.
please suggest other female great dudes if you know any. what about anais nin? eleanor roosevelt?
imo she is very dude, to remove her would be a crime!
Greetings,
Irony is funny as long as it is not about you. Listen to her routine with the ears of someone Latino or gay - I don't think you'd find the material "ironic".
I'm new here and I like it, but I stand against racism when I hear it. We can make a better choice of female dudes.
Is she wrong? Is she wrong?
I've never heard her, so I'm a little curious. Is she saying real things ironically or is she saying lies? 8)
i fantasize about going back in time and helping anais nin to conceive.
we can have female dudes, but also special ladies that aren't necessarily dudes.
we got janis joplin. and i really like zooey deschanel, and that girl that sings in giant drag although she seems real sad in her songs.
Sarah Silverman Is totally a dude, I have seen her show and stand up numerous times, she is easily one of the duliest dudes I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot of dudes! Keep her on the list!
I concur. Sarah Silverman is most definitely not a dude.
The fact that she's just not really that funny aside (and I don't mind offensive humor at all, she's just not good at it). Sarah Silverman is quite simply way too high strung to be a dude. She strikes me as someone who, while may be a nice person, would have a very difficult time just, "taking it easy" in the truest sense of the phrase.
We must remember, there's a difference between being liked by (some) dudes, and actually being a dude. Being liked by dudes does not make a person a dude.
There are a lot of female dudes out there, Sarah Silverman is most certainly not one of them - even if you think she is funny.
Rosa Parks, if not Dude then mention for a most Dudely act. she was totally Dude when she set of that controversy, basically she "just took her easy", the rest of Murcah threw a fit. But she really did nothing, in fact it was her not doing that caused all the fuss. It was her say'n this is good enough, an empty seat at the front, why keep walking down the aisle. Then when they tried to make her do something she said, "this aggression will not stand man!". "I abide by the empty seat, y'all are a bunch of reactionaries."
So I nominate Rosa Parks, at least for outstanding Dudely move.
Peace
Oh yeah Sarah, what ever. She's cool, maybe Dude, maybe not, donno, too many ins an outs.
Rosa Parks, a dude of the highest order. Fucking eh, they don't make em' more dude like.
http://www.rosapark.com/rosaparks.htm
Quote from: Bishop on May 19, 2010, 12:39:04 PM
...we can have female dudes, but also special ladies that aren't necessarily dudes....
I think you miss the point here entirely. This is not a list of great Dudes girlfriends. The point is either sex can attain Dudeism.
and as for this greatspirit monk:
Quote from: greatspiritmonk on October 10, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
...but I guess it's the same female ratio that there is between dudeist priests. Maybe taking it easy is more difficult for females...
Mate may you burn in Dudeist Hell for that ;D. I'm surprised no one has called you on that one.
The problem with trying to find female Dudeists in history is the simple fact the history has been written by men for a couple of thousand years. So has generally concentrated on Men.
Dudeism is an attitude and way of life, there is nothing in the genetic makeup of either sex that makes one or the other more able to become Dudeist.
As for
Sarah Silverman. To be honest dudes I haven't got a fucking clue.
(Lost the plot there somewhere).
That, and the whole Yin Yang, masculine and the feminine, yielding and aggression. Yeah man if one looks at it a certain way, then Dudeism is more the yielding feminine ergo, chicks have a natural Dude state, so maybe there is not so much a contrast, making it harder to spot female Dudes. After all, pregnancy and child birth may be the ultimate form of abiding.
Just some shit to think about dudes.
Yeah rev, I agree. They're hard to spot...
Yeah, I think that Rosa Parks should definitely be there!!!
Quote from: revgms on August 04, 2010, 03:32:45 PM
That, and the whole Yin Yang, masculine and the feminine, yielding and aggression. Yeah man if one looks at it a certain way, then Dudeism is more the yielding feminine ergo, chicks have a natural Dude state, so maybe there is not so much a contrast, making it harder to spot female Dudes...
So what your saying is most women are in a Dude state but it's more unusual for men to be balanced with their female (Yin) side so it becomes more of an event that men are actually reaching the Dude state when it's actually so opposed to our aggressive (Yang) state.
No I can go with that. But I do know quiet a few women that are defiantly not Dudes. But thinking about that in a society that (for the last two thousand years) has been run by men then it's logical for women to move away from the due state they would naturally exist in (take Margret Thatcher for instance) women have had to become more like men to compete in the uneven playing field, maybe Dudeism is the swing of the pendulum in the other direction making more men Dudes re-balnaces the women who have become more like men.
Quote from: greatspiritmonk on October 10, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
What about Mother Theresa? Or Aung San Suu Kyi?
Aung San Suu Kyi should definately be lifted up to that status, least of all because she spends so much time chilling at home (sorry, I couldn't resist!) ;D
Man, I so want to get together an do a J with you guys.
Yeah Meekon, I think it is somewhere in there, and being that you are Pagan, I am sure you are aware of all the Mother Goddess worship, pre-Biblical Earope, or even all the others in Mesopotamia and such. In Ekhart Tolles book, A New Earth, he has an interesting take on why those motivated by their Yang sought to suppress knowledge of the Yin, because it threatens their power base.
Quote from: meekon5 on August 04, 2010, 05:42:05 AM
Quote from: greatspiritmonk on October 10, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
...but I guess it's the same female ratio that there is between dudeist priests. Maybe taking it easy is more difficult for females...
Mate may you burn in Dudeist Hell for that ;D. I'm surprised no one has called you on that one.
I just read this thread, or I would have drawn a line in the sand about this kind of blathering right away. Dudes, Dudes!! Anyone taken a women's history course here? Anyone follow politics?
Plenty of abidin' females. Not hard to spot on the web, either, if you look.
Like Meekon says, opportunity and recognition have been denied. Let's not debate the nature of the roller, but shut the fuck up and roll! Can we be achievers on this? Ratio is 3:13, women:men on Great Dudes in History page right now.
<channeling Walter here...better grab a caucasian and spark up a j>
Sarah Silverman--I like her, but haven't seen that many of her routines. Mostly the fucking Matt Damon one--great!
A couple of places to start and review for Dudely qualities:
http://www.lkwdpl.org/wihohio/figures.htm
http://womenshistory.about.com/
Quote from: Outer Element on February 12, 2011, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: meekon5 on August 04, 2010, 05:42:05 AM
Quote from: greatspiritmonk on October 10, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
...but I guess it's the same female ratio that there is between dudeist priests. Maybe taking it easy is more difficult for females...
Mate may you burn in Dudeist Hell for that ;D. I'm surprised no one has called you on that one.
I just read this thread, or I would have drawn a line in the sand about this kind of blathering right away. Dudes, Dudes!! Anyone taken a women's history course here? Anyone follow politics? Plenty of abidin' females. Not hard to spot on the web, either, if you look.
Like Meekon says, opportunity and recognition have been denied. Let's not debate the nature of the roller, but shut the fuck up and roll! Can we be achievers on this? Ratio is 3:13, women:men on Great Dudes in History page right now.
<channeling Walter here...better grab a caucasian and spark up a j>
Sarah Silverman--I like her, but haven't seen that many of her routines. Mostly the fucking Matt Damon one--great!
Well dude, we just don't know why more great dude nominations have been more male than female. Personally, the female form doesn't bother me and and is by far the best for coitus, IMHO. Maybe we just need more female dudes or dudettes or what have you in our beach community to even things out a bit. We need more special lady friends around here.
Sorry DB you used the "Dudettes" word.
My soap box out again.
We are all Dudes, whatever our gender.
Perhaps there's one of the causes?
There does seem to be a higher proportion of males on the forum.
Maybe it's just that our female compeers are just not that into listening to us male Dudes blather on about geeky shit? This place has a little bit of mancave smell.
What we need is a lady Dude to step up and hang some curtains or something. Ya' know, some feminine stuff to tie the room together, stuff us gentlemen Dudes would just not know should be there.
Gentleman and Lady Dudes, does that work? Dunno.
As yin and yang are two aspects of one thing, so lady and gentleman are two aspects of one Dudeness.
I like lady Dude, but gentleman Dude meh. Mang Dude? nah. dunno.
Still in the bath listening to whale sounds, eh? I get that, chilling is Dudely. However, this Dude has been going after his rug. How about nominating any or all of these female Dudes as a Great Dude in History?
Rachel Carson (1907-1964) - Marine biologist, science writer, and environmentalist.
http://www.lkwdpl.org/wihohio/cars-rac.htm
Marie LaVeau (1796?-1863?) - African-American Voodoo Queen of New Orleans and famous herbalist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Laveau
Georgia O'Keeffe (1887-1986) - Famed American artist who defied convention in both her art and her private life.
http://www.lkwdpl.org/wihohio/okee-geo.htm
Quote from: greatspiritmonk on October 10, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
What about Mother Theresa? Or Aung San Suu Kyi?
So, can some of these female Dudes that have been suggested be put up on the Great Dudes page? I can bring on more if we want more to choose from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
http://www.lkwdpl.org/wihohio/cars-rac.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Laveau
http://www.lkwdpl.org/wihohio/okee-geo.htm
Who the fuck is Sarah Silverman? ;D
May I try to give the whole discussion a different direction?
IMHO it does not make a whole lot of sense to classify people as either dudes or non-dudes. As hardly a person is completely healthy or completely unhealthy (at least not before or during her or his last breath), I think most people are neither completely dude nor completely undude. In most cases, it depends on context. There may be exceptions, I admit.
Even The dude gets undude now and then and affected by stress-talk (which must not be carried into the next round robin, of course).
Does it not make more sense to point out dudeist or undudeist behavior, instead of persons?
For example, trying to protect an arse-hole character as papa Lebowski from being hurt by a Walter Sobchak character (who is always convinced of his own error of judgements until the shit hits the fan again), immediately after having been heavily insulted by that arse-hole, that's what I'd call very dudeist. Even if naming someone a cripple may not be the preferred nomenclature. And is it not exactly that Walter who is most dudeist when saying (several times, as we all know): Fuck it, let's go bowling.
Just my opinion, fellas, but I could imagine this way of seeing things might prevent this quiet beach community from turning into a place where we fight about who is what.
...which would make us difficult to distinguish from a Roman Catholic Concilium (or what have you), where robe-clad authorities get their knickers in twists about who is a saint and who not.
On a personal level, and on the same grounds, I do distrust the notion of saints (or great dudes in history, as such) anyway.
Faithfully BE
Quote from: brother_erwin on February 12, 2011, 05:12:34 PM
Does it not make more sense to point out dudeist or undudeist behavior, instead of persons
I totally dig that. Everyone is a mixture of dude and un-dude.
Still think it's only right to represent the ladies, however way they're represented. Might help bring them to the party, too--lotta folks have said they want this.
I am with you on that, Outer Element. What's the use of parties without them ;D
...on second thoughts: Who is to represent them, if they do not so themselves.
And, don't stone me for that, what if - for whatever fucking reason - dudeism d o e s have more appeal to johnson-wearers than to amphibious rodent owners ;D I'm talking about beavers here, not marmots. ;D (or, in German parlance: bears)
Perhaps, after all, dudeism is a male solution to a male thing.... ???
Like TBL seams to appeal, on average, more to male viewers than to female ones?
And if so, what would be wrong about it?
Faithfully BE
Quote from: meekon5 on February 12, 2011, 07:38:15 AM
Sorry DB you used the "Dudettes" word.
My soap box out again.
We are all Dudes, whatever our gender.
Perhaps there's one of the causes?
There does seem to be a higher proportion of males on the forum.
I agree, "dude" for both genders is probably best (much more simpler), but what about those of us with female forms (your basic female) who might feel that "dude" is a bit on the butch side? Something a bit like.........
(http://www.fightzilla.com/babelogger_images/Katrina_vs_Billy_Mixed_Wrestling_Female_Bodybuilder_Headscissors.jpg)
Although, there are worse places a guy could find himself in. ;D
Quote from: brother_erwin on February 12, 2011, 06:18:16 PM
...on second thoughts: Who is to represent them, if they do not so themselves.
And, don't stone me for that, what if - for whatever fucking reason - dudeism d o e s have more appeal to johnson-wearers than to amphibious rodent owners ;D I'm talking about beavers here, not marmots. ;D (or, in German parlance: bears)
Perhaps, after all, dudeism is a male solution to a male thing.... ???
Like TBL seams to appeal, on average, more to male viewers than to female ones?
And if so, what would be wrong about it?
Faithfully BE
You could be right, there Brother Erwin - but I gotta say - that would be a bummer, man. Shabbos every day . . fuck that.
Especially in light of recent discussions on these here boards (Dudeism was recently slammed as "another patriarchal religion").
Quote from: brother_erwin on February 12, 2011, 06:18:16 PM
...on second thoughts: Who is to represent them, if they do not so themselves.
And, don't stone me for that, what if - for whatever fucking reason - dudeism d o e s have more appeal to johnson-wearers than to amphibious rodent owners ;D I'm talking about beavers here, not marmots. ;D (or, in German parlance: bears)
Perhaps, after all, dudeism is a male solution to a male thing.... ???
Like TBL seams to appeal, on average, more to male viewers than to female ones?
And if so, what would be wrong about it?
Faithfully BE
Yep. Jest about every way you look at it, hee-roes come in different genders. To the extent you identify as that gender, that's who your hee-roes are.
Probably a better reason to put more great female Dudes up on this site is so that whoever partakes of Dudeism will have the benefit of having a range of Dude role models to look to for inspiration, no matter what gender. Process of dismantling bias and all that--would be good to do with race, ethnicity, etc., as well.
Yeah, but I wasn't talking about shabbos every day, man.
Also, I wasn't talking about patriarchal stuff , just, forgive me, there might be differences between the sexes, like there are differences between submarines and fiords, like the former may enjoy finding their way in the latter, or rodents and johnsons.
Fuck it, all these hormones and things, they are not there for just fun and games, there must be an unspoken message.
What's wrong with differences? I mean, there is discriminating - and there is discriminating against.
Faithfully BE
Why would it be a bummer, if - on average - some things appeal more to men than to women?
On average - I stress this point. I don't wanna argue black and white, there's brown and beige and tan also, of course.
Why would it be a bummer, if it was as it is, just if.... even if some people called it what-have-you ?
No, Dude - an all male environment (that is Dudeism without Vaginas) would be like Shabbos every day; extremely dull and no place for me. Early days, we are exploring the reasons why it appeals more to males than females. You could be right in that TBL is more a movie for men than women and that would explain the gender discrepancies. However, the movie isn't scripture and we can mold (or steer) the Dudeism experience into something approaching a C21 code/belief structure (you know what I'm trying to say). Words man - just words but we have to careful how we use them. Look at the shit the Catholics have got themselves into: a woman can't be a Priest but she can be a Nun - subservient to a Priest. We don't wanna set off on the wrong foot: a Dude is Dude, in the Lodge/Church - Dudettte implies something less. . . fuck it, not going through that again. In short, there is nothing wrong with the biological differences, nothing at all. As to unspoken messages - not sure what you mean; but if there are lessons to be learned from the different biological factors - if we filter out all the gender-assigned (by society) crap then what better place to learn about them than a Forum/church/whatever that recognizes only Dudes (nothing less nothing more)? There are enough all male clubs/religions in the world - let's have a human being club and have fuckin' done with it.
If it isn't a bummer to you, that's okay; for me it would be a disappointment, another missed opportunity to further our understanding of each other (genders) and really explore the differences (I am not sure there will be that many). Really just a side issue (IMO) to what we may be able to do in years to come. I don't see the point (personally) in expending energy on just another male (hedonist) pursuit. Seriously, wtf would be the point? May as well just call ourselves a fan club - Saturday nights you could invite your 'special lady friends' along . . perhaps those who are uncomfortable with the idea should explain why the notion doesn't sit well with them. I am at a loss to understand the reticence.
It's totally cool if some people want to identify with their traditional gender roles to the exclusion of others. That's your personal choice. But Dudeism has nothing to do with gender, it's about attitude. The fact that there are far fewer female dudes is because (for whatever reason), women find it harder to live the Dudeist lifestyle without self-reproach or the criticism of others.
I personally believe that male Dudes would love to have more female Dudes to hang around with. If women find it harder to be Dudes than men (or less appealing) then that should stop anyone from encouraging them to be part of the movement. Maybe they need to be afforded the luxury to see just how horrible and shallow society's expectations of them is.
Look at the difference between women's magazines and men's (lad's in the UK) magazines. Sure, lad's magazines may be rude and vulgar at times, but at least they offer some ideas and philosophy and practical living and aren't just pure vehicles for pleasing the opposite sex and worrying about how you look. I submit that women have it harder than men do. They need to know that most of us don't give a shit about their hair products and nail polish and quality of their clothing. Consider the disarmingly sexy librarian! - she dresses dull but so what? And anyway, if feminism should have taught them anything its that a life spent worrying about what men think about them is half a life. Anyway, maybe they need us to help them conceive - not a baby, necessarily, but a new and more relaxed way of looking at life.
Also, I think that people are happiest when hanging out in a group of like-minded equals of both sexes. That's just my opinion, man. Too many guys together brings out the worst in us, too many women together brings out the worst in them. We soften each others' edges and bring more love into the room, even if it's platonic love.
The only flaw in this argument (and its a big one) is that of children. Woman are under literal and unavoidable pressure there. And a good thing too, I guess, or the human race might die out.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling - haven't yet had my coffee. It's my strict drug regimen.
just had a sip of coffee and it gave me super dude power to see a typo. i meant "then that should NOT stop anyone from encouraging them to be part of the movement.
Was just looking at a thread I started and noticed that I also used the term "chick dude." But that brings a question of would you have use the term "dick dude" to be fair? Trying to keep my mind limber here.
See.............. http://dudeism.com/smf/index.php?topic=1558.0
the same way as we say female actor and male actor now, i think female dude and male dude are fine.
if we want to be fatuous we could say johnson dude and beaver dude.
maybe we should adhere to religious tradition and say brother dude and sister dude? or brother and sister shamus?
lotta strands.
I just want to help Sarah Silverman conceive.
Quote from: forumdude on February 12, 2011, 10:43:42 PM
the same way as we say female actor and male actor now, i think female dude and male dude are fine.
if we want to be fatuous we could say johnson dude and beaver dude.
maybe we should adhere to religious tradition and say brother dude and sister dude? or brother and sister shamus?
lotta strands.
I like brother and sister dude. I wouldn't go with beaver dude, even in fun. It's got a negative connotation to it, whereas johnson does not (that I'm aware).
Quote from: not_exactly_a_lightweight on February 12, 2011, 10:45:18 PM
I just want to help Sarah Silverman conceive.
;D Me too! ...
(http://somepeoplesay.paco.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/sarah_silverman-crotch_02.jpg)
Re-hi, CB, outer element & forumdude,
sorry, complete darkness (the European night) washed over me some hours ago. Re-reading the thread now, I feel a bit misunderstood.
(And I haven't got a clue what C21 stands for in this context. You were not referring to anal cancer, CB, were you?)
Now, surely I don't fancy an all-male environment (here or elsewhere), and for sure I welcome any female dude. What I said was just descriptive statistics, if you will. Sorry, I was not aware that all this had been discussed before.
Then, and yes I think we differ on this, the next question for me is, if there is a sex (or gender-) related appeal differential, ::) , is it necessarily a problem? In my opinion it isn't - although I don't want an all male environment. I don't think men and women, and everything in between the two, have to be "equal" in what appeals to them. And, yes, I don't think we can put it all down to society.
What I also don't want is to censor my mind because some people think of dudeism as patriarchal (or blasphemist, or un-American, or ....). And I don't feel in a position to argue the female view, either. I mean I don't like the idea of a female dude development schedule or something like that, because I think it is basically patronizing. That does not exclude encouraging any female dude who feels at home on the rug to join.
Well, anyway just my opinion.
Faithfully BE
There is no female Dude development schedule: people can still dig whatever they want to dig - just sorting out the language used on the Forum. C21 is a lazy way of writing 21st Century (a hangover from my university days).
I think I understand.
Thanks for the C21 explanation, too.
Faithfully BE
I think of Sarah Silverman as more of a "Walter" than a dude...but one damn fine-looking Walter :o