The Dudeism Forum

It's been a pretty enlightening week for me, what with my involvement in the UK leg of the Dudely Lama's docu-tour.  Been great to shoot the breeze about things with some likeminded fellas, including the DL himself.

However, I wonder if in light of all I've seen, heard and talked about this week, it's a great dawning of Dudeism starting to move forward.  It's found a starting point, it's jumped and it's making moves, but I'm worried about the whole thing stagnating near the beginning of this fantastical journey.

So, why no let's get the ball rolling on talking through some of what we think Dudeism needs to start focusing on in the future?

What am I blathering about?

Well, I'll try and keep it light for the first post, as I'm not usually one with the ways of brevity, so here are a few jumping off points for discussion:


1)  We need to start expanding the Dudeist canon. A lot of dudes, including myself, have been working on this, trying to broaden the horizons of Dudeism away from this pure Lebowskiist model.  I think one of the most harmful things for our movement is to be caught in this Lebowskiist image that's a) offputting to some, b) holds us back from bigger things and c) makes people quickly dismiss us as a joke or a movie cult.

Dudeism is inspired and realised through TBL, it's not about it.  It may be intrinsically there and part of it, but I think it's time for it to be downplayed a little compared to true Dudeism.  I'm not the only one who thinks so, and I've got some agreement from some more learned Dudes on this, so I think the time is now to get the ball a'rollin.


2)  The gender/race divide.  Now, as much as we know we're some to some great female dudes, that we're all for equality and egalitarian ways, and the like, it's generally seen from the outside as "phallocentric" and an all white-male club.

I think when coming away from Lebowskiism this will help.  The image we portray is very important to evolving our philosophies and broadening our base of members/followers/believers.

My own partner still isn't convinced, in spite of all I've told her about our female Dudes and the broader ethos we're into.  Although she can see what I'm saying and knows about the bigger picture, the image we have is quite offputting and unwelcoming to some, and we need to start evening that out before we alienate people who would otherwise be down with us.


3)  Apart from being a club for white males, it's seen to be a club for single white males.  The reality of it is, most of the Dudes I've met and spoken with, be they male or female of persuasion, are in relationships, have children and even grandchildren.  Yet, Dudeism, as it stands, covers no ground when it comes to bonding, apart from with friends.  Perhaps its time to start looking at more family and partner related sections of our ethos.  It's all in there somewhere, man, but most people can't find it, and that's another offputting thing.


4)  Finally, the slacker nature, as we know, isn't about being a jobless bum, or a workshy scrounger, but once again, that's how it seems to others.  The first article I wrote for the Dudespaper was about this very issue, that once again, most of us work and contribute, but the Lebowskiist fixation and image detracts from that.  People can't take seriously something that seems to work on a model doomed to failure.

We want a broad spectrum of people digging our ideas and benefitting from this.  We want to bring people on board, not push them away.  Yeah, we're irreverent and the whole idea of Dudeism is that it's a bit of a joke, but in the way that life is a joke and we can make light of serious things.  We need to instill that in our image rather than people laughing like it's only a joke and nothing more.


We've got a great thing here, guys, I think we just need to move it off the Lebowski springboard and propell it into the philosophical blue yonder.  The fact that the Dudeism documentary interviewed such a range of people who were down with Dudeism in principal but were put off by the image until we explained the broader aspects, and that Thomas and Olly specifically chose them for this reason, I think is the dawn of moving forwards.

Dudeism wants to get a'rollin, we all just need to start giving it a push.  Inclusive of Lebowski, yes.  All about Lebowski, no.  We need to start straightening this image before it traps us.  It's time to start talking about Dudeism not as a religion 'about The Big Lebowski', but as a whole.  Lebowskifests are what the Lebowski fantics have, Dudeism is for something else.

So, let's talk :)

Lotta cool strands here to keep in ol' duder's head, man.  :)

I've thought about these points you outline and especially like "Dudeism is inspired and realised through TBL, it's not about it."

That's one of the hardest things to get across to people. Human beings have a natural tendency to embrace the metaphor and not what the metaphor is pointing to. Like Buddhism is much more than Buddha, or Christianity is much more than Jesus. Even though both Buddha and Jesus say words to that effect, we still have people bowing before Buddha statues and crucifixes.

I'll mull this over some more, but I think the challenge we face here comes down to the paradox that opens the Tao te Ching:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

Your other points are excellent things to ponder as well. I'm particularly vexed by the whole race thing. I think we're making inroads with the gender thing, but race, I don't know.

Unfortunately, TBL, like most of the Coen Brothers' movies, focuses mainly on white male characters and their concerns. Still, they also speak to deeper universal issues as well. Today we're so polarized and segmented into our cozy demographic blocks that we often overlook in general these universal concerns that affect us all and get hung up on the things that divide us.

These are all just some rambling thoughts to help get things started. I don't have any large analysis or answers to post. However, with all the turmoil right now (London riots, austerity, wars, economic crises, etc.) I really do think the essential message of Dudeism is something people need (and deep down want) to hear. Like the sacred clowns and holy fools of old, I think we Dudeists are the ones to do that, but have to find ways to get that message across to them in ways that make them laugh, think, and experience something larger than themselves.

Not an easy thing to do but I think your post here is a great way to begin moving in that direction.

I'll look forward to seeing some more responses.
 

As usual, you and I seem to be in tandem here, AD :)

Quote from: SmokeytheBuddha on August 13, 2011, 08:20:52 AM
That's one of the hardest things to get across to people. Human beings have a natural tendency to embrace the metaphor and not what the metaphor is pointing to.

You'll have to watch out for my next article in a few weeks.  I've had it down for a while by ran it by Olly this week as a precursor to sending it in, finally.  It's call Mything the Point, and it's exactly about that, how people read the words exactly and miss the message that's in them.  The message in mythology is so often distorted by translations and a lack of personal poetry/insight/context when reading.

There's a lot to tackle, yeah, but I think it's a good time to start, what with there being a bit more of a trend amongst a lot of us to steer into something with more substance beyond the basic messages of the movie.

Glad to have you with us, as always :D

New shit has come to enlighten me!

"There's a lot to tackle, yeah, but I think it's a good time to start, what with there being a bit more of a trend amongst a lot of us to steer into something with more substance beyond the basic messages of the movie."

Hell yeah. I know that I seem to take nothing (Nossing?) seriously, but Spirituality is very much lacking in our time and place. True Spirituality, to me, is not buying in to a money-grabbing, fear-mongering, ignorance inducing, inspiring hatred "belief".
It's being open to all that this wonderfully short life offers. Gutters and strikes and what have you, makes us better people.
As for the race/gender divide...I have always just considered people as, well people. I treat everyone the same (yes I am a cheeky besom!) we are all compeers (in the parlance that we know and love) dude.

I'm starting to lose my train of thought...dammit. ???
I wish my brain worked as well as it did when I was younger!

Yeah, Ma Duder, with race and gender, we're all equal as Dudes.  Dudeism, as I proposed in another article of mine, is the great leveller.  It's even more egalitarian than Sikhism or Buddhism.  We have no discrimination here, and yet...

From the outside people don't see that benefit, they just see some hairy white guy smoking ganja and a bunch of people trying to imitate him.  It clouds the real message of an egalitarian society under the banner of dudes, not labels like black, white, man, woman, straight, gay or even a yellow-bisexual-hermaphrodite.

I think, apart from being a broadening of the whole ethos, the most important thing to sort out is out PR 8)

My question would be to what extent will we downplay TBL as part of Dudeism? Are you wanting us to cast off our robes, shave our facial hair (if any), and never touch a white russian again?

I do agree we need to expand the church. I think as priests we should consider how to take Dudeism from its present state as what some might call an e-religion and bring it in to the physical world. Something to consider would be recognition by the government as a religion. In the U.S. I believe we are required to have a congregation, a place of worship, and the congregation must contribute some amount of time to community service.

So to attain recognition we must first find a way to get people interested. I wouldn't think this step would be too hard, we have more ordained priests than most other religions do members. At this point in my ramblings I now see the importance of not making the religion about TBL. :)

What's That Smell!? ???

Yo meekon5, cakebelly!...you smell something rotten here?
Do I detect the rancid odor of "Christianization" going on here?

WTF!?...expanding the Dudeist canon - move it - springboard - propel - evolving our philosophies - broadening our base of members/followers/believers.

Yo dudes...just feed it; keep the fuckin' Christians out, allow it to be organic and grow on it's own. 8)

YEAH I agree ..... this makes sence........ let it grow on it's own ......

Quote from: cckeiser on August 13, 2011, 04:20:29 PM
What's That Smell!? ???

Yo meekon5, cakebelly!...you smell something rotten here?
Do I detect the rancid odor of "Christianization" going on here?

WTF!?...expanding the Dudeist canon - move it - springboard - propel - evolving our philosophies - broadening our base of members/followers/believers.

You dudes...just feed it; keep the fuckin' Christians out, allow it to be organic and grow on it's own. 8)

And so the schism begins.duhn...duhn...dah

Just kidding, but really there tends to be two schools of thought here, that boil down to a question. How do you have definition with no structure. We will always get caught in the web that is the first verse of the Tao, as Smokey pointed out. But then I remembered my "Lazy man's Guide to Elightenment". When you remember it is only a game and the rules really don't matter, then go ahead and play the game.

It doesn't matter how we do it, as long as we remember it is only a game man.

We could build chapels, as long as we remember they are just cool props for the game, or an empty meadow could be a cool prop, no where anywhere it's all the same. Just moves in the game. It's not the ball, the lane or the pins that matter, it's the game.

CC's right, but Ed's ideas are how it grows organically, I share his enthusiasm and heed CC's cautions, and I roll, I roll a lot in my quiet little corner.

Looking at the VW commercial Olly did ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYUD6vs0pg4 ) I have to wonder though how far is distancing ourselves too far. In the commercial we see he has a booth set up at a bowling ally trying to help others take it easy and he talks about how the religion and the dude are intertwined.

I guess what I am trying to say is would it be wrecking Olly's idea to distance ourselves from the movie.

I know in an earlier post I said I could see the importance of distancing ourselves. The idea of being a movie "cult" bothered me a bit. After seeing the commercial though It makes me think there should be some kind of middle ground.

I don't know man. Too many strands.

fuckit dudes...lets go bowling. 8)

Ok, some good points raised whilst I've been a'sleepin :)

First off, let me assure you, as I said, I'm not for dumping TBL, I just think it's not what it's all about, and we all know that.  No one thinks it's just TBL and that's that, but from the outside, that's what people see, and when people ask "What is Dudeism?" and someone says "It's about The Big Lebowski" it's a misrepresentation.

Secondly, there should be no one telling anyone what to do and how to be.  I have a beard that if shaved off could make about 6-10 Dudely facial wigs, that's who I am.  I just don't think we should say it's necessary to wear robes or grow beards or smoke dope, it's an option, like my long beard is to me, and my own style of clothing.  Dudes are some of the truest individuals out there (unless they're all trying to conform to copy The Dude in a way that might creep The Dude out if he met a gang of his own clones).

Afterall, The Dude is an individual first and foremost.  He digs the Stranger for his style, but how would he react if someone was wearing his exact clothing and trying to be him completely.  I think he'd not be so down with that kind of identity theft ;)  Besides, the official word on Jelly Sandals this week from the Dudely Lama was that they weren't that comfortable for him, each to his own man, and each to his own comfort.  Comfort yes, enforced discomfort for the sake of conforming, no.  I mean, I love wearing a bath robe at times, but I wouldn't wear one in the middle of summer :P

I'm not saying ditch anything apart from the single-minded Lebowskiist view we have from outside.

Thirdly, hold off on the lynch mob there, CC.  That's very undude to try and call my friends to run me out of town :P  Especially as I know Meekon is onside with me.  He may be infamously guarded against Christianity (which, by the way is not my bag, so let's leave them out of this and say no more about them, this is about Dudeism), but he's also very non-Lebowskiist, as far as I know.  It's a common issue that TBL speaks a lot, but it often speaks more to US culture than to us outside of it.  As Brits, Cakey, Meekon and myself are statistically less likely to get out of TBL what you guys in the US do.  I'm a massive Coens fan, I've used several of their other films in my articles, and my column for the Dudespaper's called Dude Simple, I'm all for Coenisms and Lebowsiisms to be used, but I think we need to paint it as more than that.

I don't think making things more like other religions is the way forward, we don't need to be conforming, but, let's look at something here.  You say no to Christian influence (beyond the dudely words and actions of Christ, I'm sure), but then why are we called a "Church"?  And why do we parody sacrament, and other Christian things.  I agree, leave Christianity alone, and let's put some of the parody away.  We don't want to turn into those Pastafarians, just parodying things to try and paint other people's beliefs as absurd.  We're the religion of abiding and tolerance.  Let them other do what they want, and if they do something we agree with, great, and if not, that's just their opinion, man ;)

Thirdly, yeah, I want this to evolve naturally and organically, but it needs discussion on how to progress, which is what this is (I hope).  We need to talk about things and toss ideas out there make this evolve.  Evolution requires catalysts and our biggest catalyst (apart from Olly Lama's first watching of TBL) is talking.  We're interconnected over the internet, our biggest asset to forming up as Dudeists.  Until I met Revs Meekon and Klaus in real life last year, it was all just talking, words and more words on a screen.  Then I met the Dudestock crowd the other month (Mother Dudirior, The Archdude of York and the whole gang), and the Dudely Lama and the Italian film-dudes last week.

I've talked Dudeism, face-to-face, real time, and that's a truly special thing.  I have a truly brilliant time shooting the breeze about all kinds of crap, as well as Dudeism itself.  And, you know what, you might think that the VW advert is an argument that ol' Olly Lama might not be on side with me on this, but you might be surprised.  Like I said, this discussion comes off the back of what I've seen and been a part of this week.  Dudeism was, is and always will be at one with Lebowski, and it's always going to have been realised through it, but there is more, we know there's more, but we need others to see it.

What we have here is a failure to publically represent.  PR fail, if you will :P

We've talked to sceptics this week and converted them with non-Lebowskian talk about what else we're about.  It's not a movie cult, they suddenly realise.  There's more to it than a bunch of white guys slacking off and shirking.  There's a real ethos to it that speaks to people and can work on a larger scale.

No one's trying to force anything here, I'm just trying to get people talking, and hells, it's worked.  If this is as far as we get in discussing this, I've already achieved :D  Any more discussion and movement on these points is all gravy (wavy or otherwise) from here on in.

Don't be afraid to tell me you think I'm full of shit, but also don't be afraid to agree and talk about this without making it into a schism or divide or an invasion of something that's not Dudeist.

I am A Dude, not The Dude.  To make Dudeism seem to everyone as all about Lebowski is like people thinking Judaism is all about Moses leading some slaves out of Egypt.  There's more to it than that.  Buddhism is more than reincarnation, Sikhism is more than just turbans and Rastafarianism's more than dreadlocks and ganja.

Keep talking guys, through all the strikes and gutters we're gonna hit in this thing, there's gonna be a score at the end and I don't expect it to be a perfect 300 :)

Sorry dude, but the Christian stench gets my Walter up. 8)

Now here is a good article on what you are talking about

http://dudespaper.com/on-and-off-the-road.html/

...and I quote you here:

In life, no one has any kind of GPS. Global Positioning for the Soul. Unheard of. Although, it is what religions generally try to impart, with their holy texts, and mythology, and codes of practice and clergy, and whathaveyou. Dudeism takes a more relaxed attitude to life?s roads. We don?t try and steer you down any one in particular, we just encourage you not to run as you go or worry about what the road signs say. At the end of our road isn?t necessarily heaven, hell or nirvana; it?s happiness, and there?s no one way to get there. In fact, it?s a different road for each one of us, that?s the great thing about the diversity in our community, and the richness that brings to us all.
By Rev. Ed Churchman

Ow, touche :)

Well, that's how you know I'm on side with the natural flow and evolution.  But, as you also know from the articles I write, I'm about shooting ideas out there that do move to the wider grounds of Dudeism's lush and verdant garden.

To counter quote from a more recent publication, by a couple of wiser fellas than myself:

Quote
(Bruce) Lee said: "Always be yourself, express yourself, have faith in yourself, do not go out and look for a successful personality and duplicate it."
Never one for pretense, the Dude was always at ease with himself and had obviously spent much of his life avoiding the square community's ideas of success.

That's from the Abide Guide.

This whole statement, to me, includes the ironic thing of trying to be THE Dude in order to capitalise on his Independence.  Conforming to not-conform is a complete oxymoron.  There's a diversity in our community, but when you boil things down to TBL and insist people wear robes and burn jays, the diversity goes and conformity rears its bearded head :)

I don't want people to stop learning from and quote TBL, but I want a bit more focus added on all the other cool stuff we've been doing.  I'm not trying to force anything here, I'm just dropping a pebble in the river and seeing what ripples it creates in this one thread.  If I was forcing anything I'd be making demands and saying this is how it should be, in the old Fascist motif.

The thing is, to most outside of our circle, we're all walking down one road, as a massive group, doing the same stuff.  Don't we want people to think they can come in here and walk around and wander and do what-have-you without feeling alienated or ostracised for being Dudes who aren't Lebowskiist.  I think some of the more extreme Lebowskiist practices are fine to visit us, but their real home is at Lebowskifests.  It's all a bit of fun, and we know that, but I think it's not winning us many converts who can't see the Dudes through THE Dude.

If you're down with my ideas from the DP, I'd hope you were down with my ideas about having this discussion.  I'm not tryin' ta scam anyone here ;)

well for me dudeism is my way of dealing with what life throws at me, i work in the oil industry and before i found dudeism i would sometimes get stressed out if the job was going all wrong, as far as the big lebowski and dudesim is concerned for me they have nothing to do with one another apart from the fact that dudeism was inspired by the character the dude and his ethos, dont get me wrong i like the movie but it has nothing to do with dudeism as far as i am concerned, i do have a goatee beard but i have done for the last 16 years, i dont wear a robe (i dont even wear one) i am a biker so i wear my dudeist patches on my leather waistcoat, i dont own or wear sandals but prefer trtainers or big heavy boots....what i am saying is that i dont conform to the image of a dudeist which has been portayed by TBL and our ties to it, i dont go around spouting of quotes from TBL but i am more likely to be heard spouting quotes from monty python movies......essentialy what i am trying to say is that yes i am a dudeist but i am not trying to be "the dude" i am just "a dude" who does his own thing.
I think that dudeism needs to distance itself from the movie because if it does not then it will only ever be seen as a bunch of movie geeks even though i know that lebowskists and dudeists are different there are others who might not and some who might be put off dudeism because they see it as such a thing.
in regards to keeping the christians out......well i always thought dudeism as for anyone regardless of their current faith or culture

Pirate, another Brit, there, encapsulating a pre-Lebowski dude-way.  Thanks for piping up there, man! 8)

I've been sensing a recent pattern regarding how non-Americans take to the concept of Dudeism when put into a context with TBL.  They all love the movie, but not as many seem to think that The Dude, as a character, speaks to them as much as it does for Americans.  Which is only natural.

"Dudes" in the UK are very different, culturally, to Dudes in the US, although we share the same sensibilities at the heart of it as being a bunch of "nice people who love to get on with others and not to stress and bow to trends over their individualism and personal peace of mind".

Something I've heard from at least two other Brits apart from myself in as many days is "I am A Dude, not THE Dude".  Which is perhaps a reaction to the tendency to follow in the footsteps of The Dude some people seem to paint themselves as all about, as opposed to groovin' to their own Dude way.

Once again, I won't want a split between Lebowskiists and non-Lebowskiists, I don't want to start dividing things down international lines here.  But, there are gaps I think need highlighting and filling in.  We need to start tying a few of those strands in our collective head together :)

Pirate! You took the damn words outta my mouth & i wrote a piece yesterday saying the very same thing!

As I don't come on here often, I'll say keep this up, gents.

I dig what all of you are saying. I think each of you has a point and I'm grateful for all the opinions and enthusiasm.

Let me take this opportunity to allay any and all of the fears that have been expressed. Dudeism is not dependent on Lebowski in any way. It is merely inspired by it. For the moment, The Big Lebowski functions as a sort of easily-accessible framework for people to instantly "grok" what we're all about. But it is just a finger pointing at the moon (as the honorable Rev. Meekon pointed out). Once Dudeism matures I think we can begin distancing ourselves from Lebowskian iconography, or maybe just salt it with other Dudeist myths/characters/icons/etc.

I realize that the whole Lebowski thing sometimes rubs certain Dudeists the wrong way, but it's been such an excellent tool for attracting the Dudeists out there that I think it would be premature to distance ourselves from it. It even occurred to me today that perhaps in the future we might slowly shift the name "Dudeism" to "Abidism" given that Abidism sounds a bit like Buddhism so the almighty power of the pun would not be squandered. Just a thought. Dudeism has a nicer ring to it though.  Still, we can't get too hung up on the literal stuff. That's what was the undoing of many other religions.

I would also like to assure all the Christ-fearers out there that Dudeism will never become a branch of Christianity and that if we often parody Judeo-Christianity in our materials and what have you it's only because most of our followers are familiar with that stuff. If we started joking around with Buddhist terminology (samsara, samana, samahdhi, bhikkuni, moksha, tanha, etc) we'd probably just confuse people. But the point is, the terminology and the puns exist mostly just to have a bit of a laugh while still orienting would-be Dudeists towards seeing Dudeism as a religion. Nevertheless, I still maintain that we should welcome any folks who want to discuss overlaps with Dudeism and other religions, including Jesusy ones.

One thing that has been really cool in watching Dudeism grow is that for the most part people seem to implicitly understand what it is all about and there have been very few threats to its integrity from folks who think it should be something other that what it is. I've had to do very little work to "husband" or "steward" or "prune" the unfolding of all this. I take comfort in that. Makes me feel all warm inside.

Most of all, I truly dig that you all feel so passionate about it. Kudos to Rev. Ed and his flowing beardy prose and petitioning. It was great to meet he and Meekon in London. I hope to meet more of you some day.

oh, sorry, forgot to address the most important part - should we aggressively grow dudeism? or should we let it grow on its own, organically? i think the middle path is in order. we should definitely come up with ways to spread the dude word (i will be rolling out some new features very soon, now that phase one of the documentary is over - including "the rug" and "abide university"). but i don't think we need to worry too much about it. dudeism is growing at a nice stately pace. hopefully once the abide guide gets some more exposure it will do a lot toward getting the word out, and without anyone having to lift a finger (except for our publisher).

in regards to working on the canon, i agree that this is something that could be worked on. it's all a question of pace though. everyone is free to do what they wish to promote dudeism and try and come up with texts and the like. no one need feel that there's any hurry or that it's incumbent upon them to contribute.

still, once some of these new things roll out i think that we'll speed up a bit whether we want to or not! the flow has a pace of her own. we should all surf it, pacifically.  thankee.

Quote from: forumdude on August 15, 2011, 03:06:57 PM

One thing that has been really cool in watching Dudeism grow is that for the most part people seem to implicitly understand what it is all about and there have been very few threats to its integrity from folks who think it should be something other that what it is. I've had to do very little work to "husband" or "steward" or "prune" the unfolding of all this. I take comfort in that. Makes me feel all warm inside.

My point exactly. TBL has led everyone of us here...we are not confused as to the distinction between The Big Lebowski and Dudeism...why would anyone else be? The Big Lebowski is both the magnet and the filter.
The only problem I see...and i am as guilty of it as anyone...is we do not incorporate the Tao of The Dude De Ching as much as we should or could.
I mean...what does the Tao of the Dude De Ching have to say about our current discussion here? Can we take any comfort from its lessons? Can we Up The Tao?

http://dudeism.com/tao/

How about:
14. Tying the Room Together
Looked at but cannot be seen ? it is a worthy fucking adversary;
Listened to but cannot be heard ? it is a stonewalling little brat;
Grasped at but cannot be touched ? it floats off across the sky.
There is no bottom, nor the proper nomenclature,
All these strands make it a very complicated case.
In its rising, darkness warshes over,
In its falling, new shit comes to light:
A continuous blathering that cannot be told about.
Drawing a line in the sand,
It does not split hairs,
It throws out a ringer for a ringer,
There is no literal connection,
Down through the ages, across the ash-cans of time.
Not living in the past, but forgetting what day it is, and abiding at the finals;
In this way, Dudeness perpetuates itself.


Tao Te Ching: 14. The Continuity of Tao
The saints said: ?Praise and blame cause anxiety;
The objects of hope and fear are within your Self.?
?Praise and blame cause anxiety?
For you must hope and fear to receive or to lose them.
?The objects of hope and fear are within your Self?
For, without Self, neither fortune nor disaster can befall.
Therefore:
He who regards the World as the Self is able to control the World;
He who loves the World as the Self is able to nurture the World.
Looked at but cannot be seen ? it is beyond form;
Listened to but cannot be heard ? it is beyond sound;
Grasped at but cannot be touched ? it is beyond reach;
These depthless things evade definition,
And blend into a single mystery.
In its rising there is no light,
In its falling there is no darkness,
A continuous thread beyond description,
Lining what can not exist,
Its form formless,
Its image nothing,
Its name mystery,
Meet it, it has no face,
Follow it, it has no back.
Understand the past, but attend the present;
In this way you know the continuity of Tao,
Which is its essence.


Or maybe:
22. Can?t Be Worried About That Shit
Abide and you achieve,
Spare and you strike,
Drink and you are drunken,
Take it up with the man, you got a man down,
A life of achievement, and didn?t do very well at it,
Forget about the fucking toe!
Nothing about it indicates.
The Stranger accepts the World,
As the World accepts the Dude;
He narrates the film, so is clearly heard;
Does not self-apply a name, so remains unknown;
Has never been to London or France,
But can die with a smile on his face without feelin? like the good lord gypped him;
Because he does not eat the bar, the bar does not eat him,
He does not curse, so no one curses him.
The Stranger said, ?Take it easy, Dude?I know that you will.?
Yeah man.  Well, you know, the Dude abides.
The Dude Abides.

Tao Te Ching: 22. Acceptance and Contention
Accept and you become whole,
Bend and you straighten,
Empty and you fill,
Decay and you renew,
Want and you acquire,
Fulfill and you become confused.
The sage accepts the World
As the World accepts Tao;
He does not display himself, so is clearly seen,
Does not justify himself, so is famed,
Does not boast, so is credited,
Does not glory, so excels,
Does not contend, so no one contends against him.
The saints said, ?Accept and you become whole?,
Once whole, the World is as your home.

I'll come back to this, soon - got other shit to shovel, right now - but I will say that I like 'Abideism' a lot.  8)

This thread needs a disclaimer; "bring an extra limber mind, or enter at your own peril".

Boil it down, take er easy, what ever you do or don't do, remember to take it easy, boiled further, abide.

You can't build, or allow Dudeism to grow, the wrong way if, in what you do, you do abidingly. Or don't do abidingly.

Dudeism/abiding is like obscenity, probably impossible to describe, but you know it when you see it.

Abidism! Yeah, baby!

For my twopenneth, let Dudeism/Abidism grow organically as it has done. People will come as they have done & if they haven't found it then they are probably LIVING it instead.

Word of mouth & online stumbling has done well so far.

I would never wish to "convert" any droogie.

One more thing, maybe us Brits should call ourselves THE ABIDE SOCIETY, as a wee satirical/anarchic pun on our glorious political leader Big Headed Dave.

Just a thought ...

When Rev. Dog asked me to write an article on Dudeism for his online magazine last year, I actually, without thinking, didn't include anything about TBL at all.  He had to put that in himself for the intro, just to make the connection:

http://pulpmetalmagazine.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/abiding-with-a-dudeist-by-rev-ed-churchman/#more-288

In fact, it was ol' Dog himself who created the title of the article, because I plum forgot to do it myself!  "Abiding with a Dudeist".

There was a great comment at the end by a reader who had said:

Quote
?You have to find your own happiness in life, but with that comes the realisation of what really does make you happy, not what you merely perceive to do so.?

Great stuff here. I?ve been terribly curious about this? religion, and your description has satisfied my wonderings.

Just shows that you can attract people in with the Dudely message even if you don't use The Dude.

However, like I keep saying, this is not about canning the TBL side, it's just about softening the focus, as at times it seems that it's all automatic movie quotes and not much more.  We just need to be able to show our other side to the world at large, rather than hide it behind our more, dare I say it (as a prime, major-geek myself)... geeky side.  Never should be blunt the irreverence of our ethos, but we need to make it seem more of an irreverant way of life than an out-and-out joke, as many on the outside see it when it looks like a Lebowskifest that's gone on too long :)

We've had a really great growth of this thing, and no one's can force it in any direction, but part of our growth process is talking, and that's what we're doing here.

Also, thanks for Forumdude for piping in.  I wasn't going to quote him directly or speak for him, but I just wanted to start the ball rolling on the sort of things we had discussed last week to gauge the thoughts of the community and see where this train of thought might take us all.

Ok, I think I can guess what happened. You dudes went out in the real world to make your little documentary and the hoopleheaded Christians laughed at you. Did they make fun of you? Did they Sneer? Did they make you feel inferior?
So now; after you spent all this time trying to weave Taoism and TBL into Dudeism...now you want to try and un-weave it. You want to get "Respectable".
I think what you want in Abideism is something more akin to Tao Dudeism. A new interpretation of the Tao based more heavily on the Tao and a whole lot less on TBL...a higher Degree of Dudeism if you will. We can have basic Dudeism tied to TBL to attract the more intelligent from Lebowskism, then a degree higher would come Abideism/Tao Dudeism. A more simple Tao without without all the double talk...something a dude could understand and embrace.
(BTW...I prefer Tao Dudeism to Abideism; but that is like just my opinion dude.) Tao Dudeism would be more like a Feng Shui for living...not just for your desk and house, but for a way of living your life...an un-cluttering...removing obstacles that block the smooth flow of Qi to comfort and joy in you life. Learning to live life for life's sake. To unburden those things/habits/ways of thinking that cause unhappiness...and only accumulate those that bring comfort, joy and happiness into your life. A new simple way of takin' er easy...of Abiding.

Am I wrong?...Well then...we got our work cut out for us then...a Swiss fuckin' watch...

I'm just looking forward to the Council of Dudeia, when we all get together, drink lots of White Russians, smoke mad quantities of Js, and battle this out as Dudeists. That sounds like so much fun, certainly more fun than that meeting they had at Nicaea a long while back.

We should start planning that now, for like in two years(no need to rush), plenty of time for Dudes to plan. A chillapolooza.

Aha!
It will happen even here.
We are likely to spawn a protestant Dudeist movement. A split amongst the ranks.
Those who hold to the purist lebowskian canon and those who welcome change.
Personally I take comfort in Abidance in such matters.

I don't care if people take Dudeism as a joke.
In a world of every type of religious reactionaries pissing on our rugs I find Dudeism to be a much more comfortable bathrobe.

Quote from: cckeiser on August 16, 2011, 07:24:48 AM
OK, I think I can guess what happened. You dudes went out in the real world to make your little documentary and the hoopleheaded Christians laughed at you. Did they make fun of you? Did they Sneer? Did they make you feel inferior?

Jeez man, what the hells are you on?  You need to change your supplier, because I think he's sold you some bad shit there :)  Change the record...

This is the UK, man, there are no Christians here, they're an endangered species :P

Almost all the people we dealt with were Atheists and Agnostics.  Guys that had their own flavour on the offbeat philosophy, be it the Idlers or the Absurdist author.  Apparently, according to Meekon, one guy's muttered comment from the back during the talk was "Why don't these guys grow up?" or something along those lines.  That was Wednesday, after I started to highlight this on Monday.

Now, that doesn't phase us, but it does highlight a point that the image of slacking off and shirking is not an ideal to sell this on, and the problem with using The Dude as a figurehead is that he's seen, from the outset, as a bum, and people aren't easily persuaded by the Dudeist argument that he's a man you should all be like.

Once again, on the inside, we know we're idolising the easygoing nature of The Dude, and whathaveyou, and not the workshy nature he embodies.  
Now, I don't know what's going on Stateside, but other here, we're a secular nation with a more curmudgeonly philosophical view.  Most of our freethinking radicals were all about getting on with the job without being bogged down in all the crap of politics and society.  We don't have Christian lobbies and entwined religious views in our politics and media (for the most part).

In the UK, we should have been effectively preaching to the choir, but sadly, all the people we thought would be onside with us found some of what we had to offer a little unpalatable, and I think it's obvious why... Once we'd talked more about the wider philosophy and practice outside of being an extention of a never-ending Lebowskifest, more of those people were onboard with what we were really about.

To take it back to the US then, what do you think your freethinkers would do if you'd have told them, in life, they were marked as Great Dudes in history?  What would Vonnegut or Hicks or Carlin or Twain think about the Dudeism movement?  If we're modelling ourselves on people like this, don't we want to perhaps move more into their spirit than that of a cult movie fanbase?

Check this out: http://dudeism.com/greatdudes/

Ever since I've been a member of this religion, that page has been the same, no changes.  And where is The Dude?  4th down the page, poignantly in the mix, not leading the conga line.

There's a wider thing here we need to start promoting.

And once again... leave the Christians out of this, man.  Stop dragging the Christians into this.  No one is mentioning the Goddamn Christians but you, CC :P  Forget ye not, one one gives a shit about the fuckin' marmot... I mean, Christians... They're out of their element here :D

Quote from: BikerDude on August 16, 2011, 08:24:21 AM
I don't care if people take Dudeism as a joke.
In a world of every type of religious reactionaries pissing on our rugs I find Dudeism to be a much more comfortable bathrobe.

It's not about taking it as a joke... I mean, life's a joke.  We don't want people who only want to take it seriously coming in here.  We want the light-heared, fun-loving, laid-back folks to come in and laugh with us.

What we don't want is people thinking there's no value in it, especially when some of these people are essentially with us, but feel the whole "movie-worship" thing is a detriment, not an asset.

Once again, this isn't about removing Lebowski, it's about not playing the videotape on a loop.  The movie may never get old, but the tape its on will wear out eventually :P

The Council of Dudeia! That's marvelous!

I think the main thing that impelled this post is that it was so fun to work on this documentary, meet some really sharp dudeists and dudeist-friendly philosophers and writers that Rev Ed got excited about it all and just wanted to put some energy into it. And that's cool, that's cool.

Also, it seems that there are two challenges when it comes to attracting more UK interest - first of all, many people seem to take issue with calling it a "religion." maybe it has something to do with the fact that they've just come out of a century of threats by "big ideas" and are loath to trust even the slightest hint of pie in the sky mysticism. also, religion is a very private thing over there. it seems that the idea of what a religion is in europe is a lot more narrow that what it is in the states. and certainly there is a lot more control of religion there. the US, after all, was founded on the notion of freedom of religion.

the second problem is that TBL is such a distinctly american movie (not just the characters and the setting, but the deep philosophy of the movie pertains directly to the notion of modern day americanism) that i suppose it's a little more alien a vehicle for our british bretheren and sisteren, not to mention the continentals and others.

so i dig where ed is coming from. and the other brits who seem to make up the lion's share of this forum (and that's fucking interesting, isn't it?). definitely stuff to keep in mind.

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on August 16, 2011, 08:34:48 AM

Quote from: BikerDude on August 16, 2011, 08:24:21 AM
I don't care if people take Dudeism as a joke.
In a world of every type of religious reactionaries pissing on our rugs I find Dudeism to be a much more comfortable bathrobe.

It's not about taking it as a joke... I mean, life's a joke.  We don't want people who only want to take it seriously coming in here.  We want the light-heared, fun-loving, laid-back folks to come in and laugh with us.

What we don't want is people thinking there's no value in it, especially when some of these people are essentially with us, but feel the whole "movie-worship" thing is a detriment, not an asset.

Once again, this isn't about removing Lebowski, it's about not playing the videotape on a loop.  The movie may never get old, but the tape its on will wear out eventually :P

I don't really worry much about what others think.
I guess I find the idea of Evangelizing and "spreading the word" to be inherently Un-dude.
I mean the first thing you get when hitting the Dudeism site is...

Quote
Come join the slowest-growing religion in the world ? Dudeism. An ancient philosophy that preaches non-preachiness, practices as little as possible, and above all, uh?lost my train of thought there. Anyway, if you?d like to find peace on earth and goodwill, man, we?ll help you get started. Right after a little nap.

Seems like no matter how you cut it this is driven by a desire for social acceptance.
I find that as an aim to sort of go against the Dudeist way.
I mean even if you take "the movie" out of the equation, the Dude remains the model and I just don't see the Dude sweating whether people found him without value.
Personally I'm not out to change the world or even improve it. I just want to kick back with some oat soda's and if others want to join me that's cool. If not, hey the bonfire is still burning in the yard and I'm abiding. Dudeism just fits me. If it fits others that's cool.

Well, no one's talking about forcing the message out there.  Certainly there's no recruitment drives or anything like that.  I'm not the sort to get excited about things, and I've certainly not tried to convert a single person, even the most dudely of my friends, but I will answer questions if asked, to the tune of my own Dudeist band.

In fact, in Edinburgh, someone told me I should be offering out our fliers.  My response was that I was going to stand there with with in my hand, if anyone wanted one they'd come to me, and if they wanted to know anything they'd ask me.

Once again, this is not about drastic changes anyone hopes to make, nor is it about "evangelising" *shudder* this whole Dudeist thing.  It's about talking about perspective.  Dudeism is about talking and sharing without arguing.  I was hoping for a kind of mass-debate, which altough I prefer to do manually, is sometimes aided by using the inner-net.

Talk, yes.
Action, no.

If you are being Dude, and avaialble to the world at large, and willing to explain what being Dude is, that is about as far as Dudevangelizing goes. It is enough, and it is abiding, and it is spreading the word.

We could take something away from the Shambhala crowd, they just live as "sacred warriers", and that is enough, same with Zen. Live the Dude, and it will all find it's place. Tonight I am going to a sitting with the Zen Peacemakers, I am going as a Dudeist, not to proselytize, but to just share space. Their ideas about bearing witness are like abiding in public, not exerting and not hiding, just being there to share.

Quote from: revgms on August 16, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
If you are being Dude, and avaialble to the world at large, and willing to explain what being Dude is, that is about as far as Dudevangelizing goes. It is enough, and it is abiding, and it is spreading the word.

We could take something away from the Shambhala crowd, they just live as "sacred warriers", and that is enough, same with Zen. Live the Dude, and it will all find it's place. Tonight I am going to a sitting with the Zen Peacemakers, I am going as a Dudeist, not to proselytize, but to just share space. There ideas about bearing witness are like abiding in public, not exerting and not hiding, just being there to share.

Yeah that's cool man.
Don't get me wrong man. I do not doubt our Dudeliness.
Tonight I'll be grilling some steaks and kicking back with some frosties to watch the Red Sox.
The fact that there is a religion that finds that to resemble a ceremony is way cool.
I was Dude before there was Dudeism. That's the appeal for most I believe.

Quote from: BikerDude on August 16, 2011, 09:46:08 AM

Quote from: revgms on August 16, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
If you are being Dude, and available to the world at large, and willing to explain what being Dude is, that is about as far as Dudevangelizing goes. It is enough, and it is abiding, and it is spreading the word.

We could take something away from the Shambhala crowd, they just live as "sacred warriers", and that is enough, same with Zen. Live the Dude, and it will all find it's place. Tonight I am going to a sitting with the Zen Peacemakers, I am going as a Dudeist, not to proselytize, but to just share space. There ideas about bearing witness are like abiding in public, not exerting and not hiding, just being there to share.

Yeah that's cool man.
Don't get me wrong man. I do not doubt our Dudeliness.
Tonight I'll be grilling some steaks and kicking back with some frosties to watch the Red Sox.

Those two sentiments make me proud to be a Dudeist 8)

I'm not into the whole meat-eating thing, but I do love to attend barbeques, a great way to kick back and see other people enjoying themselves.

Personally, I'll just take some time this evening with the other half, chilling and kicking back with some simple fare, some cool liquid and maybe a good movie (or a bad one, if the mood takes us).

Simple pleasures always give the greatest joy for the least sweat :D

well i dont preach to anyone but a friend recently had a bad episode and was close to suicide so one day he was telling me that he thought he would become a minister of the church (of scotland i pressume) now i gathered he was looking for something that was missing in his life so i informed him that i was a dudeist minister (or whatever you wish to call it) i told him that it was loosly based around taoism and that it was more of a way of life than a religion and to check it out but to look closer and to forget about the big lebowski even though it is a good movie, well a week later i spoke to him again and he told me that he had checked it out and that what he found had helped him begin to cope and to see things in a different way

Wow, the power of Dudeism!

That's the sort of good we need to be sharing with people around us.  Not standing on street corners and shouting, but just living the Dude life and sharing the Dude way as people need it/want it.  Leading by example is always the best way.  People make their own choices based on what they see in you and judge for themselves.

Do as I do, not as I say, and certainly not what I preach :)

Endeering story, Pirate!

Good day, Dudes. First time by the forum and coincidentally posted a blog entry today on Dudeism, correlating with the big events of Lebowski Fest NY this eve. If you'd care to see what i'm blathering about it's the latest post on my site, ineedmorecowbell.com.

It contains various references to Lebowski texts, the movie, taking it easy, abiding, this site and what have you. I'm gonna step out and go play some Creedence with the fellers. Catch ya further on down the trail!

Quote from: CowbellNation on August 16, 2011, 05:32:04 PM
Good day, Dudes. First time by the forum and coincidentally posted a blog entry today on Dudeism, correlating with the big events of Lebowski Fest NY this eve. If you'd care to see what i'm blathering about it's the latest post on my site, http://www.ineedmorecowbell.com/2011/08/dudeism-just-taking-it-easy-man/#more-538

It contains various references to Lebowski texts, the movie, taking it easy, abiding, this site and what have you. I'm gonna step out and go play some Creedence with the fellers. Catch ya further on down the trail!

Yo! Welcome dude...welcome to our nice quiet beach community. The good sarsaparilla is over there dude! Very nice article mang. 8)

Thanks for checking it out man! Nice forum you guys have here; completely unspoiled!

On our way back from Utah we were driving towards an oncoming storm for a good hour before the first raindrops hit the windscreen. Driving into one of Mama Earth Dude's wilder parties. The anticipation of the bone-dry Mojave for the rains blessing was almost palpable and gave a cutting-edge to our own excitement as Silver Bullet (our family car) sped eagerly into the oncoming chaos. The air-pressure seemed to cocoon us in a cone of silence as we rolled on towards the hills that were alive with a spectacular lightning display. The desert rolled on by and seemed to become greener with each wet mile we progressed. The sage brush was saved - for another year, perhaps - from 'tumbleweedom'; the musty smell of the landscape was suddenly enhanced with a slight spicy top note scent - I couldn't fill my senses with it: it was elusive yet persistent. One had to find it and just when you thought it would alight upon your olfactory vibe sensors for longer than a nanosecond the mustiness would come back in full force. Like a hummingbird the scent flitted around my awareness with the dizzying prospect of a high definition, 3-D, widescreen, surround sound, revelation that refused to come. In this land of Rattlers, Scorpions and dead-eyed Jehovahs Witnesses something else abided and we tried to abide along with it - for the time of our passing -but the sage Sage Brush kept its own council. I have never been inside (on the outside) of such a violent storm before in my life and I was at once humbled and excited to have played a small role (as a Dudeist Witness, if you will) to the rejuvenation of our trail. The clearing and greening of our way. We passed through safely, our weary bones refreshed to the point of a happy, content tiredness. The kind that children are more familiar with when their games have been well-played, their quests fulfilled - replete in themselves with the inexpressible quiet joy of the golden certainty of more good shit to come.

                                                    internet Dude seeds
                                            morning rains on world of shit
                                                    golden buds quiver

I don't have any objection to experimentation, evolution or any kind of 'tion' in theory. In fact, I thought that's what we were doing here at the forum; experimenting, poking and prodding - rolling slowly, yes, but rolling out a few eights, here and there. I thought we had laid out a few new lanes, raised a few chuckles and some Kiva cash. soothed a few sores, scattered seeds of inspiration  and kept the colours flying (the colours may change on a daily basis but that's a good thing and at least they are flying); mixed a few metaphors and - on the whole - been very Dudely in this grand internet roll. It is working (slowly, yes) and therefore it is a success (let us not fall into the hole of gauging our worth against the world view of what success means); I know no one is trying to undermine that but I just wanted to state that fact.  I think what we have here (at the present) is a failure to communicate  intent. I found the arrival of this (welcome) thread to be rather exciting (one of us had to do it, sooner or later) and am happy to be hello and welcoming to my response  ;)

I think  - maybe - some Walter hackles were raised by the manner of the introduction. I know, let me stress, that such was/is not the intent but I believe that may have been the result. For my part I found it odd that a Dude 'went away to rap with some learned Dudes' and came back (after his sojourn in the three-dimensional world) to lay some 'received from on high trip' on the rest of us - a trip that we are all (mostly)  on the same page with, anyway [edit: However, I realize that it was just inspired enthusiasm to get to grips with a few niggling issues that, I for one, am eager to address, too]. Hmm, perhaps I am taking liberties, myself, there; it is my perception that we are Dudes  - Lebowski-ists do not tend to last long, here (there may be a few lurking survivors). As we all know we are a loose collection of Dudeists/cool fuckers/anarchists/quakers/pagans/zennists/hobbyists/goat worriers and what-have-yous and a little shit-kicking (sans foaming mouths) is not beyond us. Dudos to Sage CC for maintaining the Watch - but in this case, there is no cause for alarm (I believe); Dudos to Rev Ed for inserting the hot pepper up our collective asses and Dudos, again, for being who the fuck you both are.

edit: will get back to this soon

Quote from: cakebelly on August 17, 2011, 12:10:04 PM
On our way back from Utah we were driving towards an oncoming storm for a good hour before the first raindrops hit the windscreen. Driving into one of Mama Earth Dude's wilder parties. The anticipation of the bone-dry Mojave for the rains blessing was almost palpable and gave a cutting-edge to our own excitement as Silver Bullet (our family car) sped eagerly into the oncoming chaos. The air-pressure seemed to cocoon us in a cone of silence as we rolled on towards the hills that were alive with a spectacular lightning display. The desert rolled on by and seemed to become greener with each wet mile we progressed. The sage brush was saved - for another year, perhaps - from 'tumbleweedom'; the musty smell of the landscape was suddenly enhanced with a slight spicy top note scent - I couldn't fill my senses with it: it was elusive yet persistent. One had to find it and just when you thought it would alight upon your olfactory vibe sensors for longer than a nanosecond the mustiness would come back in full force. Like a hummingbird the scent flitted around my awareness with the dizzying prospect of a high definition, 3-D, widescreen, surround sound, revelation that refused to come. In this land of Rattlers, Scorpions and dead-eyed Jehovahs Witnesses something else abided and we tried to abide along with it - for the time of our passing -but the sage Sage Brush kept its own council. I have never been inside (on the outside) of such a violent storm before in my life and I was at once humbled and excited to have played a small role (as a Dudeist Witness, if you will) to the rejuvenation of our trail. The clearing and greening of our way. We passed through safely, our weary bones refreshed to the point of a happy, content tiredness. The kind that children are more familiar with when their games have been well-played, their quests fulfilled - replete in themselves with the inexpressible quiet joy of the golden certainty of more good shit to come.

                                                    internet Dude seeds
                                            morning rains on world of shit
                                                    golden buds quiver

Fuckin'-A dude! Thanks for that. I dig your style rev cakebelly...I surely do. 8)

@ CC - Thanks, your style is most diggable, too  8)

cont: Dudeism may have been inspired by TBL but it manifested - in the real world - through the consciousness of DL. It is not, in my opinion, 'realized' through TBL it is (as Busmum said the other day) realized through us Dudes. We are inspired, are we not, by the Sages of various ages by the high hilarity and humanity  - the sheer outrageous Dudeliness  - of great Dudes in history. We add to the list all the time; new sources of inspiration bubble up from the Dudely Spring to refresh and enlighten us sinners when the need for a draught of something more satisfying than an oat soda calls. Have we not shown, here on this forum, that we can get by without a canon? We have the wisdom/foolishness of the ages at our disposal to help us on our way. I know that we are hooked up to  taoism in an official way; but, so what? We can be hooked up to anything that we like for as long as it salves and suits; we can unhook anytime we like. The great thing about Dudeism (IMO) is that it is an experiment. It is (well, sometimes) exciting to consider where it will all lead  - if in fact it should lead anywhere, at all. The problem with 'canons' is that people want to shoot at other people with them. After awhile doctrine restrains and stifles the growth that first gave the original idea nourishment. Look around and see where all that doctrinal shit has got the world. However, I take your meaning (and I understand that language is something of a mine-field in this particular arena of endeavour) and I do personally encourage consensus of intent. We should feel that we are on the same page, as it were, about certain things.

To address Rev Ed's (and others) concerns rather more directly:

The single white male hedonist shit really does have to go; it doesn't represent most of us and perhaps never did. It was okay to start with as a means to an end and I daresay that what was meant in parody/humour has now become something of a millstone (doctrinal iconography is just as harmful, after a time, as the written word).  What we have (and I must say I am still fond of the image itself) is the Dude Vinci wossname - so, what to do? Perhaps we can abide - for the time being, anyway - with just using the Duded Tao when representing Dudeism outside the forum. If image is the key here then let us start dealing with the imagery. Retire the Dude Vinci - ain't no big thing. In time we may come to feel that the Dude Tao is in need of a holiday, too. That, of course, means that a lot of the merchandise will need updating (again, so what?), most of my videos will need deleting or editing (the former gets my vote - no big deal;  they were just made for fun and when one is image poor then one uses what ever is available).The perpetuation of the Dude as a figurehead/central theme needs to be faded back. . right back; it ain't healthy to have a human image as a focal point for any philosophy. There is nothing to be done, realistically (IMO) about the 'race divide' - we need to broaden our musical and social activities and meet and greet, I guess. Perhaps more on that later.

The issue of gender can only be addressed by going with the idea of 'Abideism'  - I have crapped on about this issue enough and as most of you know I fear that the issue is always going to raise its ugly head again and again. Stopping folk in their tracks who would otherwise have danced with us under our shady tree. We will still be Dudes, we still address each other as Dudes but  - to the 'outside world' we will be Abideists. It is what's written on the door (so to speak) that welcomes or discourages. Why the fuck are we allowing good Dudes to be turned-off by some imagery that doesn't even suit us? Doesn't even 'mean' us? Are we Catholics to get caught up in tradition, so soon? Of course not. We must say a fond farewell to the stuff that is keeping other folk from feeling Duded. We are the hosts of this here party and we don't want to insist that people wear ties to gain entry, do we? Do we bollocks.

As to the family issue, well it isn't uncool to share family shit on these here boards. Don't really know what else to say about that but celebrate the family, Dudes.

I got nothing against work-shy bums - I got nothing against working Dudes; as long as both activities are conducted as Dudely as possible I haven't got anything to say about it.  Once the outdated imagery has faded like a a favourite pair of jeans then the problem may not arise as much.

I am not sure about this Lebowski issue - it ain't my bag and I won't carry it but the statement "inclusive of Lebowski, yes. All about Lebowski, no", I don't quite understand. Isn't that what we have now, here? This problem will disappear when we take care of the imagery issue. (edit) As for Lebowski fests I would stop promoting them, myself.  If Dudes want to go that's cool but on a personal level I couldn't give a fuck if we stopped being involved with them altogether. Other Dudes may like/love 'em so I guess we'll have to wait to hear from them. It certainly doesn't mean that folk will have to burn their bathrobes. Anyway, enough for now. The shit ball has been kicked up mid-field.  8)

I know I'm not given much to the simple ideals of brevity, but in the interests of enhancing my dudely brand of stoicism...

"I agree with Cakey"

... is pretty much all I have to say on that.  I think we're on the same wavelength for about 90% of what you just said, and 10% either way is no here-nor-there in my books.

I wanted to get this big issue out there, and for us to 'shoot the shit' as they say Stateside, and I love the stuff we're all coming out with.  Really gets the whole thing flowing :)

Ah, hells, I've just gone and babbled again.  So much for brevity!

It's just as well I edited out a good 40% of my post then - who knows where your 10% might have ended up  ;D ;)

So where are we dudes? Can someone summarize what the fuck just happened?

I got a few threads running around in my head for a new simpler DudeTao if that's the way you dudes think we should be headed. Rewrite the Tao for more Abiding and less Lebowski. Make it a whole lot easier to understand...and in English too.
Should be a dude-consensus thing here though. You know...throw something out and get feedback from all the dudes.

I don't know...right now i feel like a child who walks into the middle of a movie....

it's good that the right rev. cakebelly and i discussed this, and that he posted more eloquently than i would've... i tend to get cranky and impatient (not to mention sarcastic) when someone walks into the party and wants to start organizing it and shit, right when i found a comfortable place on the couch to relax and put my feet up.

post-work pique aside, we should be discussing "what now?", particularly when it comes to practical matters, such as being able to perform marriages. although there are aspects of this brand of spiritualism that are tongue in cheek, i think there are a core group of us that wouldn't mind the evolution...

but here's where i'm coming from: i walked this walk, and talked this talk, incorporating a multitude of spiritual learnings from around the world into my finely honed ethos before "the dude" character was conceived, and will continue to do so whether or not what we have here ever gets defined, or evolved, or recognized, or whatever else it is we're doing here.

i come here and play because it's fun. and i want it to stay that way, and not get bogged down or subverted by bureaucratic or heirarchal bullshit.

and this is a good point too:

Quote from: cakebelly on August 17, 2011, 05:33:30 PM
...The problem with 'canons' is that people want to shoot at other people with them. After awhile doctrine restrains and stifles the growth that first gave the original idea nourishment...

even here, where it's pretty free-wheeling, and most people are accepting of other's points of view, i find myself having to ignore the obnoxious or inane or immature-- and do so happily, knowing that's just a part of life. but i am of like mind with meekon5, who mentioned on another thread that he doesn't like being dictated to about what it means to abide; so i would like to move cautiously as we "organize", because i would sure as shit hate for this whole thing to be... well, no fun anymore-- and i don't like the thought of having to find another couch so soon.

and remember, it's just, like, my opinion man.  ;)

Life is in great need of some comic relief! ;D

Quote from: cckeiser on August 17, 2011, 11:46:25 PM
Life is in great need of some comic relief! ;D

truism, dude-- humor is pretty important the way i see it. cakes makes a good point about moving away from some of the imagery and lebowskism, but some of it is pretty descriptive and funny... is that baby, or bathwater?  ;D

btw, excellent bot-reference there, rev. c-belly...

Quote from: cakebelly on August 17, 2011, 12:53:38 PM
... and am happy to be hello and welcoming to my response  ;)

:D ;D :D

Sound concerns, CC and Busmum but I would have to head-out and cut my own trail if things stopped being fun. Also, seriously, Dudes - can you see any of us abiding with a hierarchical system being adopted? What Dude is going to stand for that? I don't even put up with this first/arch/grand Dude shite. No, I think what we need to mull over here are our roots plain and simple. I think we just need to kick around ideas a lot more. It's way past my bed-time, now.
Incidentally, CC - it's not about what 'we' want you to do; it's about what you want to do, Dude. Your thought and opinions.  This isn't a friendly/hostile take over - just a review, of a kind. Anyway, I'm off to bed, dream well my darling Dudes.  8)

Incidentally, I'm not sure why people seem to think anyone's pushing for "organisation" and "rules" and "hierarchy".  I'm a staunch opponent of such things and have put a lot of that into my articles.

This is merely a discussion on what sort of ways we might take things further on down the road.  There's no fixing anything in stone around here, we all move forwards and flow down the stream (hopefully lounging on lilos as we go).

I find the assumption that someone (myself in particular) is trying to bring some sort of bureaucracy into this somewhat confusing.  I don't know what people are threatened by talking about ourselves and what we do... isn't that what we've always done?

I tried not to feel too insulted near the beginning when I was accused of being a "christian" and trying to impose a more "christian" way into Dudeism, and I'm trying not to feel the same for being painted as some would-be fascist :P

Sure, I'm a little verbose in my breakdown of thoughts and points for discussion, but what I was afraid of is saying simply: "Dudeism, discuss:" and getting nothing of any value back.  This is a more complicated case that a deluge of movie quotes being thrown back at me :)

Although I hate to agree with those A-holes at BT.... "it's good to keep talking".  Sometimes we just need a jumping-off point to get all these thoughts and feelings out.  Just, y'know, don't stick my head down the toilet for bringing up what a lot seem to consider valid points.  The messenger will not be shot, man 8)

That being said, I've always thought that we should perhaps spend less time modelling ourselves on things that already exist.  I now we have closer links to Taoism, and also Buddhism, and we're essentially humanist-transcendentalists...

But I think there's a danger in getting hung up on too much direct theft and use.  I think being a new philosophy that incorporates a bit of a hodgepodge of other philosophies to enrich it is cool.  I myself have tried to find even more compeers out there, helping us spread our links to wider philosophies, finding admirable compeers.

I think Dudeism needs to, in the long run (once again, no no no, I'm not advocating some overnight turnaround), stand on its own two feet some more.  Use less parody and take that influence deeper.

Personally, I'd possibly vote to keep the term Dudeism rather than move to Abidism (although I have nothing against the term).  Once we have established so completely that Dude our word of a thousand uses and not a gender-term we can really call it our own, like any other religious term.  The thing that addled me for a while was why that supposedly Dudeism sounded more like Buddhism that Abidism (which I seem to find really hard to type :P), and then it struck me:

This is a pronunciation gap.
In the US you pronounce it - Boo-dism.
In the UK we pronounce it - Bood-ism (bood as in wood, not booed).

As such, I now see that booed and dude sound alike, but to us Brits, they don't.  Tricky ol' thing, languages :P

Either way, I'm not a fan of the Church o the Latter-Day Dude parody.  I understand how fitting it is, but I still think it's something that might hold us back in the realms of parody.  Also, Churches are a Christian thing, and if there's one thing that smell of a flaming torches and the long shadows of pitchforks they're casting is... Christianity is not welcome here (outside of Christ himself, hallowed by his Dudely ways).

I don't truck with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster because although I'm down with the principal message they have, I think furthering it to mock and parody other religions is wrong.  Each to his own, man!

As long as we don't stray any parodies we do into that kind of senseless, hurtful mocking (well, we never would, but as long as we're not perceived to do so) then that's AOK :)

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on August 18, 2011, 06:09:11 AM
Incidentally, I'm not sure why people seem to think anyone's pushing for "organisation" and "rules" and "hierarchy".  I'm a staunch opponent of such things and have put a lot of that into my articles.

This is merely a discussion on what sort of ways we might take things further on down the road.  There's no fixing anything in stone around here, we all move forwards and flow down the stream (hopefully lounging on lilos as we go).

I find the assumption that someone (myself in particular) is trying to bring some sort of bureaucracy into this somewhat confusing.  I don't know what people are threatened by talking about ourselves and what we do... isn't that what we've always done?

I tried not to feel too insulted near the beginning when I was accused of being a "christian" and trying to impose a more "christian" way into Dudeism, and I'm trying not to feel the same for being painted as some would-be fascist :P

Sure, I'm a little verbose in my breakdown of thoughts and points for discussion, but what I was afraid of is saying simply: "Dudeism, discuss:" and getting nothing of any value back.  This is a more complicated case that a deluge of movie quotes being thrown back at me :)

Although I hate to agree with those A-holes at BT.... "it's good to keep talking".  Sometimes we just need a jumping-off point to get all these thoughts and feelings out.  Just, y'know, don't stick my head down the toilet for bringing up what a lot seem to consider valid points.  The messenger will not be shot, man 8)

Rev. Ed C man, i don't want you to think i'm accusing you of trying to bring evil into it, and muck it all up  ;D i'm just pointing out in general that these are things that are spoilers for me, and potential dangers for any growing entity. of course you're not a fascist man; i dig your enthusiasm and balls for getting the discussion off to a rollicking start.

roll on dude!  ;)

Just checkin' ;)

The inner-net is a confusin' one for trying to get words into feelin's  :-[

I like the fact that people find it a joke. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have merit.
Look at "The Fuck it Way" and their retreat at "the hill that breaths".
They make us look like puritans.
They have positively embraced the frivolity.

Quote from: BikerDude on August 18, 2011, 08:18:18 AM
I like the fact that people find it a joke. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have merit.
Look at "The Fuck it Way" and their retreat at "the hill that breaths".
They make us look like puritans.
They have positively embraced the frivolity.

i hear ya BikerDude... but i also acknowledge that i'd rather be laughed with, rather than laughed at... that being said, it's still laughter-- one of the best restoratives of the soul that i know of  ;)

i think it could be safely said that dudeism means something different for everyone and that everyone uses it in their lives in different ways so dont get upset if someone has a different idea what it is to abide than your idea........as brian said: you're all individuals.

Busmom said: " -  i dig your enthusiasm and balls"

Yeah, she likes a ginger-nut  ;)
http://youtu.be/KVN_0qvuhhw (http://youtu.be/KVN_0qvuhhw)

Ok, I have sort of been playing around with taking the Lebowski out of Dudeism...wondering if anyone else has come to the same conclusion I have?
If we remove the Lebowski from Dudeism...all that is left is pretty much just a bastardized Taoism.
That may not be a bad thing...8)

*ingores the references to his gingerness and the potential peril he's in from fans of his hair colouring*

Quote from: cckeiser on August 18, 2011, 03:28:25 PM
Ok, I have sort of been playing around with taking the Lebowski out of Dudeism...wondering if anyone else has come to the same conclusion I have?
If we remove the Lebowski from Dudeism...all that is left is pretty much just a bastardized Taoism.
That may not be a bad thing...8)

Well, maybe, kinda... But we don't want it surgically removed, do we?  It's not a tumour, it's more of a necessary body part, like, say... a small toe, y'know, for balance.  It's not that I think we should kick Lebowski away, but I think we should stand more separate from the fan-boy nature of the Lebowski cult.  That is, we shouldn't be an extention of it (like an idea someone has after too many caucasians at a Lebowskifest "hey,why don't we make a religion about the dude?!"), but we can't ignore that there are plenty of decent life-lessons to take away from how much the Dude follows the Dude lifestyle we are into.  He's the modern-day Laotzu, Jesus, Siddartha and all the rest rolled into one, right?  We can't ignore it, but surely we're looking for something more real to follow instead of fiction.  Fiction is a great nod to what people see in the real world, but if we set our minds to it we could create something fictitious for any purpose... man, I've been rambling a lot today...

The main point I want to talk about is the bastardised Taoism thing.

Well... yeah, that might not be such a bad thing, but if we leave only Tao, surely we might as well quit and call ourselves Taosits.  I think it's important to include a good mix of influences that speak to us, like we do, that built around our core principals.  These include, but are not limited to Tao, and even Lebowski.

My message from the beginning of this discussion was about broadening ourselves.  Not narrowing our vision by removing Lebowski, but to stretch ourselves like we do after a good nap.  Open our eyes afresh, wake those muscles up and take a good look around, pick up the day's paper and catch up on what's new.

Never should we bury ourselves in books and Scriptures and start shoehorning stuff in here, but we should take stock of where we are and what else there might be that we're down with, and what maybe we're all thinking about changing.  If you're not thinking, you must be too busy with shit... slow down and let life happen naturally.  I always find when I'm busy my brain is useless, but when I relax all the thoughts trickle back out :)

I think limiting ourselves to the Tao is not the way to go, but it's always going to be our closest compeer and our spiritual backbone (with Lebowski as the little toe ;)).

Of course, all of these things will end up being good explanations of what we are, but maybe that's because we already know what we are, it's just hard to find the right words without hijacking what other folks have already said... because they've already hit part of the nail between them, we're just forming those little bits into one big hammer called:  Dudeism 8)

Rev Ed said " - Personally, I'd possibly vote to keep the term Dudeism rather than move to Abidism (although I have nothing against the term).  Once we have established so completely that Dude our word of a thousand uses and not a gender-term we can really call it our own, like any other religious term."

Well, Dude I'm going to have to disagree, here: If we want to fade away from the Lebowski influence then the name, IMO, will have to change; this is the main bugbear - language. Even if you project Dudeism down the road a few years and take it for granted that we have acquired more vagina-carrying compeers it will still have to be explained, justified and we will still have the same issue with folk being turned-off by the name and its associations in the straight world and with Lebowski-ism. It will keep catapulting back. If we are serious about being all-inclusive then we are going to have to drop the name. Now, this could possibly lead to great animosity and perhaps even schisms - that would be a profound bummer but if we want to evolve then, IMO, that is what we are going to have to change. It's not just the image we should be concerned with but the word that conjures the image. Essentially nothing will change - we will still be who we are: we will be Dudes/Revs of the Abidist (trying out your spelling, there) Alliance/Shenanigan/Club/Council what have you.

At CC: No, Dude - I don't believe that is a bad thing, man - don't make a lot of work for yourself, though.

I don't understand where the fear of a hierarchy being introduced came from, either; let me just underline, again, that nothing is being proposed by Rev Ed (or anyone else) that should make a Dudeist uncomfortable (IMO); only limber and attentive, perhaps. Let's face it, chances are we are just pissin' in the wind but certainly not anyone's rug.

                                              Not soiled - new rug:
                                            odor cloud my abode mist
                                                 ties room together

                                                             
As far as taking from other older traditions is concerned I believe that's the way it has always been done. I know you lot know that there is nothing wrong with taking what's good (and what works or is just fun or salves our inner-Dudes, what have you); so, I don't see an issue, as such, there. You mentioned Transcendental Humanism, yesterday (I was going to mention Spiritual Humanism http://www.spiritualhumanismforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=798 (http://www.spiritualhumanismforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=798)); it doesn't matter - what I want to suggest is our roots should be firmly in some form of humanistic/ethical vibe - in short: we form a vibe that ensures we try to look out for (and after) one another as best we can. We can grow our own tree to sit under, Dudes. With as many leaves (cookie-ism/zen/Xian/  - all the cool shit) that our roots can nourish Dudeism/Abidism would, of course be in the central root structure, too. Anyway, more on that, later perhaps . . maybe not.

I think the call for something new is valid but if the 'new' isn't there to start with; if the vision/idea has to be worked on then that's cool - we will form something in time. Unique enough (although fed and watered by as many traditions as we desire/need) to adapt to the changing times and still be relevant. I think I really am pissing in the wind, right now, so I'll stop - just some meandering musings.  8)

Yeah, well, I vote for the Lib Dems, so I'm used to being on the losing end of this joke of a political system we call Democracy ;)

I'm not totally against Abidism (Abideism?), I'm just used to the Dude word and what we've invested in it.  Dude, dudeism, dudeist, dudely, un-dude... are we really going to jack in those terms, or just the grand name of Dudeism/Dudeist?

I think that kind of re-branding is perhaps more than I was thinking when it came to these big ideas... but I am simply of one loose opinion :)

I'm just not feeling the term "abidist".  Not got the same smoothness to it, the multi-faceted nature.  I think exploring the possibilities with detaching the Dudeist image with the Lebowski image and broadening the scope of what Dudeism means to the outside world will do a lot for it.

Man, human beings are complex and fickle :P

I'm still working (ha) on the assumption that we wanted a kind of cosmetic alteration - we'd still be dudely/un-dude - what have you. Catholic clerics don't call themselves 'catholic-ers/ists'. We wouldn't have to call ourselves anything different: "I'm a rev/dude of the Abideist Autonomous Collective" (well that is a bit of a mouthful but you know). Now you come to mention it, though: abideist, abidngly, abider, 'bider, non-bidingly, unbide  ;D Not so bad. no-bide, cool-bidings, bum-bide, peachy keen bide, yes we have no bananas bide/ top-bidings/ cool-bider/easy-bider/righteous bider . .  ;)

Well, my flame-haired gentleman Dude - you got the ball rolling, I guess you'll have to see how it's played on.  ;D


Incidentally I will be deleting any vids carrying the Dudes Prayer; M5 is right, we should curb that. So, if anyone wants to download them you should do so in the next couple of days (I will keep the 'Vivian" vid but put a different track on it. If anyone has any suggestions as to what track I should edit in then let me know. Anyone want to talk for 5 minutes 37 secs on something? http://youtu.be/OA3w0yLOt3o (http://youtu.be/OA3w0yLOt3o)). Where is M5, anyway?

Quote from: cakebelly on August 18, 2011, 05:32:47 PM
Well, my flame-haired gentleman Dude - you got the ball rolling, I guess you have to see how it's played.

If it's like any game of bowling I've ever played... badly, with aches in the morning ;)

But yeah, this is what we're here for.  I'm happy we're all coming together (well, about half a dozen or so of us anyway) to talk out this point.  Dug up even more questions than I'd managed to ask at the beginning, which means it's a'workin :D

I deeply hope that Dudeism, as it develops though out the coming decades, never becomes as evil and demented as this sick shit........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7e9vnwTjJA&feature=related

This is my concern, dudes.

I, for one, have no problem with term Church Of The Latter Day Dude or Dudeist & wear my patches & my baseball shirt featuring the Dude-Vinci with a certain joy, YET feel that Abideist sums me up personally better than Dudeist. That's all it is, a personal term for me. Dudeism is a frame of reference only.

I only think TBL & adding the "dude" becomes a problem with its overuse. That's all.

The absurd parody & light-hearted humour was one of the things that brought me here, along with the implied Bill Murray-esque fatalism of the Fuck It, Let's Go Bowling & the child-like wonder of Far Out-ism.

Maybe we should apply some Dudeism to this discussion & think - Que Sera Sera.

I don't think we should worry too much about where Dudeism is going because the people in this Forum are the slow beating heart of Dudeism & the Holy Idle. Seems like it's doing quite well as it goes.

Let the Lebowskiists do what they do as they will either stay or move on.

Anyway, it's my day off so I'm gonna eat a chip butty & sing songs to my cat Tom ...

"Grooouund control to Major Tom ..."

Quote from: cakebelly on August 18, 2011, 02:09:02 PM
Busmom said: " -  i dig your enthusiasm and balls"

Yeah, she likes a ginger-nut  ;)
http://youtu.be/KVN_0qvuhhw (http://youtu.be/KVN_0qvuhhw)

i"ll take a double helping please  ;D

Quote from: Reverend Dog on August 19, 2011, 07:38:15 AM
I, for one, have no problem with term Church Of The Latter Day Dude or Dudeist & wear my patches & my baseball shirt featuring the Dude-Vinci with a certain joy, YET feel that Abideist sums me up personally better than Dudeist. That's all it is, a personal term for me. Dudeism is a frame of reference only.

I only think TBL & adding the "dude" becomes a problem with its overuse. That's all.

The absurd parody & light-hearted humour was one of the things that brought me here, along with the implied Bill Murray-esque fatalism of the Fuck It, Let's Go Bowling & the child-like wonder of Far Out-ism.

Maybe we should apply some Dudeism to this discussion & think - Que Sera Sera.

I don't think we should worry too much about where Dudeism is going because the people in this Forum are the slow beating heart of Dudeism & the Holy Idle. Seems like it's doing quite well as it goes.

Let the Lebowskiists do what they do as they will either stay or move on.

Anyway, it's my day off so I'm gonna eat a chip butty & sing songs to my cat Tom ...

"Grooouund control to Major Tom ..."

if i had a dudevinci shirt, i'd wear it too man  ;)

you make a great point about the humor that drew you here, and also the lebowskists... i think they do tend to move on because it's so damned exhausting to write/post that way, unless it's your natural writing voice to begin with. there's only so much movie you can quote before it gets stale.


really, i think we are all such individualists, it's going to be interesting to see if we can even come to some sort of consensus (or decide if we even need to) before we all give up and decide to go bowling instead  8)

"..this is Major Tom to ground control-- i'm stepping through the dooooooooooooor..."

I think it would be awesome to spin off Abidism. But I don't see the need to rid ourselves of the Dude.
I've always had this idea that the core of Dudeism is a loose adherence to a very general ideal and that as soon as it begins to become codified it loses it's identity and it's strength and begins to become uptight.
The more formal the idea of Abiding becomes the harder it becomes to Abide IMHO.
As a concept I find it is best exemplified in the character of the Dude.
WWDD.

Now on a purely critical level, standing back and analyzing Dudeism as a religion I guess that one would have to get to a more formal definition of what Abiding is and what benefit it brings to the practitioner.
But personally I'd suggest that what Abiding entails is necessarily a bit hazy. The lack of formality is an inseperable aspect. As is the idea of what is "Dude" and "Un-Dude". "You know it when you see it."
A Dudeist would never have been systematically duped into torturing prisoners in abu ghraib,while Christians were. Despite the fact that it is clearly "Unchristian" and anti American it was precisely as "Christian Soldiars" and "Patriots" that they were happy to oblige. The move is well practiced. It is precisely the formalized set of beliefs that can be used to motivate people to act against even the same system of belief. To a Dudeist there just isn't anything to get ahold of.
Some things are Un-Dude and all the double talk in the world isn't going to change the color of that horse.
That is a type of strength IMHO.

/bluster

It is far easier to see and define unDude, then it will ever be to define what is Dude. Some general stuff stands out, but the best way to express Dudeism other than living it, may be through stories and parables. We can write all kinds of Dudeist books, share all kinds of stories, they will not define Dudeism, but they can illuminate the Dude with in them, even if they can't capture it.

If we always remember there is nothing but fingers pointing, and no one can capture the Dude, then we will be fine in what ever we do.

Express your selves Dudes, let others find their own Dudeness through that. Not rules or lines in the sand, just a bunch of Dudes.

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on August 19, 2011, 06:38:53 AM
I deeply hope that Dudeism, as it develops though out the coming decades, never becomes as evil and demented as this sick shit........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7e9vnwTjJA&feature=related

This is my concern, dudes.

or even this...

http://religionvirus.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-teenie-fad-become-and-exorcist.html

stupid and sick  :-[

Quote from: BikerDude on August 19, 2011, 08:26:10 AM
...
I've always had this idea that the core of Dudeism is a loose adherence to a very general ideal and that as soon as it begins to become codified it loses it's identity and it's strength and begins to become uptight.
The more formal the idea of Abiding becomes the harder it becomes to Abide IMHO.
...

yeah-- i'm on board with this idea  ;D

Quote from: Busmum on August 19, 2011, 09:28:49 AM

Quote from: BikerDude on August 19, 2011, 08:26:10 AM
...
I've always had this idea that the core of Dudeism is a loose adherence to a very general ideal and that as soon as it begins to become codified it loses it's identity and it's strength and begins to become uptight.
The more formal the idea of Abiding becomes the harder it becomes to Abide IMHO.
...

yeah-- i'm on board with this idea  ;D

A graet trueism, BikerDude, count me also onboard in the haziness :)

BikerDude & revgms-

I concur, gents. Thank ye both.

Ok, I am also down with that dudes...so I guess that means we are going bowling instead?? 8)

All very sound, very Dudely points (and abidingly put); no,  not looking to codify although on re-reading some of my posts I may have given the impression that's what I was suggesting. Just kicking the shit-ball around for inspiration. Yes, I believe that the best way "forward' in the spirit of what I take to be Rev. Ed's initial intent is a  lessening/editing of the current Dudeist imagery to encourage would-be Dudes/Abidists to pull up a rug. Our (Dudeist) frame of reference, from Eds original post, is perhaps what is turning people off. Now, personally, I couldn't give a tinker's cuss about derision - it is not an issue for me (I came to Dudeism via a link sent to me by someone who thought it was funny - a gas; so did I. I had seen the film, years before and liked it - although the memory was hazy, but joined anyway - I  am not much of a joiner - before revisiting the film). So, I don't care if people laugh at the movement. I am also in favour of the organic way of evolution, in principal; have said on other posts that Dudes will find us when they are ready to find us. I couldn't care less about numbers, either - if there were only 20 of us I think it would still be fun. However, I am bothered about the impression given by the imagery of Dudeism being a single, white, males' hedonist/slacker club. I am perturbed, somewhat, by the fact that Ed reported that the imagery we utilize is still turning people off. I don't like that.

This is the main issue - I think the abidism album-sleeve is a cool (and Dudely) answer to the problem. We'd still sound the same  on the turntable. This 'answer' - if accepted - will create something of a vacuum, frame of reference-wise and there is another problem. I like the tree-imagery but, fuck it - I guess that's not important, right now. What is important, IMO, is that we acknowledge that there is an issue with the imagery. Thjat we are mis-representing ourselves and so excluding some righteous, cool fuckers from joining-in the fun.

So far, it seems that there is a slight acceptance that the Dude Vinci is a stumbling block but most Dudes want to keep it. Can we, perhaps, put the abidism issue on the back-burner, for awhile and maybe focus on the imagery question. I feel we are going around in circles (or maybe it's just me) and while I love circles - I tend to get dizzy pretty quickly.

I don't think there is an abcense of Dudeliness in these responses (far from it, every one is being very Dude); now we know that nothing in essence is going to change but I feel we must address the issue a little more pro-actively than just saying 'que sera -' or 'what would the Dude do?'. The Dude, IMO, wouldn't do anything because he wouldn't be in a club like this. If we are coming across, to potential Dudes, as sexist, 'slacker', hedonist what-have-yous (because of the imagery)then what - if anything - should we do about it? How should we go about it? I have already given my secific response: retire the imagery from official use and start coming up with some new designs. No one will be shunned for wearing a Dude Vince (or what have you) - but some new designs may help.

Perhaps, Rev Ed - you have some ideas on this - I feel we are at something of an impasse if we agree that there is an issue with the imagery but want to keep it anyway - don't know where to go from here, man. We got any ideas, shall we just say "fuck it"?

The simplest answer seems to be Fuck It! But not in the sense that we should do nothing. If the imagery is turning people off then that's their problem, not the images. I think the current images provide the ability for dudes to get the dude word out. It also helps to feed the monkey, as it were, since they have to generate even a tiny amount of revenue. If anyone has ideas for new imagery though that doesn't mean it should not be created. The old imagery doesn't have to be discarded to create new imagery either. If a dudes got an idea throw it on up. I love the lebowski imagery, but I am not opposed to loving dudeist imagery that is not soo off-putting to others.

Well, I'm afraid my best thinking cap won't fit at the moment as i seem to have been struck with a large headache this evening, so I'll give just a few points that conrern me from the website.

The website is our flaship, its where we're always directing people to start their kinship with us, but I think it needs a little work.  The problem might be, I think, that much like the Forum and the Dudespaper, Olly runs them all but doesn't have the time to upkeep them as much as they might need to be.

Examples:

I log onto the main page of Dudeism.com, and what do I see at the top of my browser?
"Dudeism - Ordination by the religion of The Big Lebowski"
What does that say?  Are selling ourselves based on giving out ordinations for free, or that we're a religion based on a movie?

Luckily, if you click on "What is Dudeism?" it breaks down our wider view without mentioning Lebowski at all, and covers the gender issue of the term dude, so good plus point.  We possibly need to re-tailor a lot more of the site around this great formula.

Likewise, the Dudespaper is labelled at the top of the screen as being Lebowski lifestyle.  Surely something like a dudely lifestyle is more what we're about than being Lebwoski?  It's all in the images the words conjour up.  When you read it, what does it say to you?  When you ask a friend to read it, what does it say to them?  I know being on the inside gives me a much deeper insight than my other half has when she sees things like that (which puts her off, as someone who doesn't really identify with The Dude at all).

I guess it was her questioning of the supposed Lebowski-inspired philosophy that first inspired me to write articles.  It was certainly her question "can I be a Dude, even if I'm employed as an accountant?" question that caused me directly to start writing my article "Dudeciples & the Pan-Dudian Nation" about working not being against what it means to be a dude and how we all fit into society as dudes and how important it is to spread our dudeliness through all levels of society.

Anyway... I realise I'm rambling, and this headache is getting worse, so I'll leave that one little issue to snowball into bigger debate, for now.  I'm sure you all get the idea I'm very weakly trying to put across :P

[Apologies, I can't be bothered to spell-check this post.  It's uncompramised]

I agree that some of the wording could be changed to better reflect the over-all message of the site, and dudeism in general and how the Powerful mentioning of Lebowski might allow people to confuse a sincere idea as satire. But at the same time I know what dudeism means to me, and it will always be something special regardless of the heading atop the website.

Cakes is right dudes...right here...on this forum...what we say and do here...is how everyone who comes to lurk will define what Dudeism is all about.
TBL and Lebowskist draw their attention...once interested to find out more they...like the rest of us...will end up at dudeism.com which is the filter...if they sign up, they will eventually make their way here to this forum. What we say and do Here is what Dudeism will be all about. And that will change as the makeup of this forum changes.
Dudeism will change as dudes come and go. It will grow organically just as we do.
If you wish to make a difference in Dudeism...this is where you do it.

I find what Meekon5 has posted on the thread very interesting. 8)

All good words concerning Dudeism. What we have here could be considered some beginnings of Dudeist philosophical exploration; a lotta ins, a lotta outs, and a lot of good thoughts coming from a basic exploration of potential tenures of Dudeism called "that's just like our opinion, man" or as a lazy man would say it; "TJLOOM."

I would also call it "food for thought of Dudeist enlightenment" coming from the Dudeism group mind. Emphasis on "group mind" because no one single dude has it all figured out, and we need the input from all dudes to keep our minds limber.

So I was thinking that perhaps an epistle could be written over time (with input from all) called "This is Just Like Our Opinion, Man" Emphasis on "opinion" in order to keep Dudeism open and fluid, not rigid or authoritarian.

The title and first verse first verses could begin something perhaps like this..............

Explorations of Opinions of the Dudeist Group Mind

1. Greetings all dudes. Peace and slacking be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of the tenets of Dudeist thinking, a limber mind and the exploration of truth-seeking.
2. Let us not forget that all opinions of all dudes, be they simple or sublime, are welcome and that there should be no "final word" as to what Dudeist thinking is established as. It should continue to grow and evolve.
3. Dudeism will gain strength if it refrains from being rigid or even "complete." Let there be an open door to all who seek to add to the common opinions and theory of Dudeism and Dudeist thought.
4. Etc. ......

The model here is like "open source software" where the community of Dudeism thinkers and philosophers add components to the body of epistles being developed. This body of epistles could be developed through an "Open Dudeism Consortium" organized to manage all incoming Dudeism thinking and contributions and then posted online for all to read, critique and offer other opinions.

We don't need a "fucking park ranger" here, just a relaxed and mellow organization developed to make it easy for all dudes worldwide to contribute to the pool of Dudeist thinking. As thoughts come in, they would be organized into ever growing and developing Dudeism epistles that would fit the subject matter offered.

Perhaps an epistle would be called "Taking It Easy," or another titled "Thoughts on Abiding," or something like "Your Special Lady Friend; The Dudeist Wedding," Etc.

All IMHO.

I like that idea very much dude. I can't wait to see what more people have to say on the topic. I like the idea that no one has all the info, but collectively everyone has all the answers. Some cosmic stuff dude. I hope there are many volumes in our future.

Quote from: Rev. R Lewis on August 19, 2011, 05:34:51 PM
I like that idea very much dude. I can't wait to see what more people have to say on the topic. I like the idea that no one has all the info, but collectively everyone has all the answers. Some cosmic stuff dude. I hope there are many volumes in our future.

Thanks, man. I just added a couple more thoughts to my post.

wow. great ruminations fellas.

it is indeed my intention to move dudeism away from the lebowskian iconography at some point. i forgot that the web page says "the religion of lebowski" and the dudespaper says "the lebowski lifestyle." to be honest, that was purely for SEO reasons - to draw more traffic to the site. but it always felt like a sell-out and thanks to ed's prodding i will proceed to change it.

i'm curious as to what people might think of the idea of having various "sects" of dudeism. one thing i've long wanted to do is delve into the spiritual aspects of improvisational music. as a guitarist i thought it would be fun to start a sect of dudeism called "guitarism" but i don't know if people would think that would seem "franchizey" - which would make this whole thing look like a giant scheme of some sort. however, if people thought it might work (if done right) we could have guitarism and abideism and other isms as more specialized forms of dudeism. abideism might be a more "pure" form of dudeism, something akin to the way zen is a more pure form of buddhism (IMHO). and guitarism might be just for musicians or music aficionados.

i'm just concerned that adding subdivisions might muddy the message. it might be a hard thing to finesse without sabotaging the integrity of dudeism.  i'm already planning to start a purely academic institute for dudeist studies called "abide university." maybe that's enough of a spin off to bring in those who don't especially dig the lebowskian stuff.

what say you, esteemed compeers?

I like the idea of a dudeist university, like naropa in Colorado for the buddhists. I don't know about the sects. In my veiw it's all dudeism, there's no need to give the same thing multiple names.but that's just like my opinion man.

It looks like we are heading into some sort of a consensus that there are basically 3 philosophies going on here at pretty much the same time. Lebowskism...Dudeism...Abideism...and we pretty much have champions of each. (well...maybe not so much for Lebowskism? Any Lebowskist still here?) (BTW....I often jump from one to the other depending on the post and my mood.)

What we seem to be looking for is someway to express all 3 on the same forum without any one of them dominating the others, or turning away proponents of one of the other.
That could be a little tricky.


...another thought...articles on The Dudespaper are another way Dudeism is defined, I just have a problem with the "Comments" part of the Dudespaper. Is there anyway to link the comments to the forum? Spending most of my time here, I am rather lax in perusing both the articles and the comments regularly.
Maybe every time there is a new article on the dudespaper...a new topic can be created under the Dudespaper board heading. That way everyone on the forum will be able to read and comment if they wish. That would also serve to get more dudes to read the articles.
Just a thought.

Quote from: forumdude on August 19, 2011, 08:14:08 PM

i'm just concerned that adding subdivisions might muddy the message. it might be a hard thing to finesse without sabotaging the integrity of dudeism.  i'm already planning to start a purely academic institute for dudeist studies called "abide university." maybe that's enough of a spin off to bring in those who don't especially dig the lebowskian stuff.

I agree that have "sects" might muddy the message. I think most people here would consider themselves to be a sect of one.
Different people lean in various ways & certains symbols resonate more strongly with some than with others.

One thing, you already have The Dude University on The D/paper, why not call the Abiding section just that ... Abiding? Or something non-academic sounding as befits the nature of Abiding?
& have a "musician-space" instead of just guitarism?
Just throwing rocks, man.

I'm also of the opinion the divisions are bad.  The sects thing won't work for us, I forsee.  I think we have have "aspects" rather than "sects".  People can float more towards different aspects of Dudeism than others.

For example, I'm more into the philosophy aspect.  Some guys might be down with the musical aspect, some guys pushing other more creative aspects.  Some the meditation/yoga/spiritual aspects.  We need to play to our strengths as individuals rather than separating into groups like an actual faculty.

That said, I know that I've been told that Dude University will become Abide University at some point, and that worlds so well for me.  I love the idea of us doing something akin to what The Idler have done, coming together as a community to exchange ideas, but academic and practical.

AU (which I think is a solid gold idea... don't all laugh at once!) could really take off if we form it outside the Dudespaper, stuffing most of the old Dude University stuff into its own corner of AU.  It can also divvy up these "aspects" and have departments (sections) for Philosophy, Music, Literature, Lebowski Studies (old DU), Lifestyle, Spiritualism, etc.  I'd certainly like to be involved in all of those aspects, rather than shutting myself away in one corner.

With the Forum, Dudespaper, Abide Uni and the Rug, I think we'd have a lot more tools to start forming a community that's more encompassing, lively and active (in the laid-back Dudeist sense, of course).  As long as we keep linking them all together rather than them being separate hangouts.

As with the workload that poor ol' Forumdude has with everything already, maybe its time to start recruiting in volunteers to help with basic admin?  The forum already has extra admin staff, so perhaps we could have people volunteer to help form and run AU, and have admins for the Rug, etc etc.

Afterall, this is a bit like an online commune, so why not start to get more communal about this sort of thing :)

Separation and segregation - NO
Diversity and unity - YES

That's my opinion of the matter, anywho :P

Fucken A! Love you Dudes. I don't exactly know where we are going, but I sure as shit am enjoying the trip with you all.

I like all the ideas here, sign me up for Abide U, student and helper.

It's true that we seem to stand in the same spot, but lean in slightly different directions, Dudeism is like an ice cream bar, plenty of flavors, but it's all ice cream. Suppose I am more like the spiritual yoga type Dude who wants to be engaged in the world at large. Thing is I noticed how Dude mission work can be Dudely, it is in being approachable, not in approaching. When we had the booth set up, people would just walk up an say, "the fuck you talking about?". We were not trying to pull people, just chillin conspicuously, and they came, but only of their own accord the reactionaries filter them selves out we don't need to.

I do think there should be a way to tell active(not sure that is the right word) Dudeists from those just looking to chill. The out there priests doing weddings, meditation  classes an shit like that from the Dudes who don't need to be bothered by shit like that. Not so much for us, but for those looking to us, it's not like there is some point system to Dudeism, there is no score board and engaged Dudeists are no more or less Dude than back porch chillin Dudes.

I dig the thought of being accessible to the public at large, I see a lot of what we have to offer, some of the most unDudely people, places and events could really stand a little Dude in there.

Unless you guys stop me, which is possible if you see I should be, I do intend to open an Abide center up in Maine, hopefully with in a year or so. But honestly, I have only the vaguest idea of what that would be. Should I/we, and what would that be like?

Quote from: revgms on August 20, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Fucken A! Love you Dudes. I don't exactly know where we are going, but I sure as shit am enjoying the trip with you all.

We love you too, GMS.  Wouldn't be the same without you, Gary! :)

Quote from: revgms on August 20, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
... Thing is I noticed how Dude mission work can be Dudely, it is in being approachable, not in approaching. When we had the booth set up, people would just walk up an say, "the fuck you talking about?". We were not trying to pull people, just chillin conspicuously, and they came, but only of their own accord the reactionaries filter them selves out we don't need to.

Indeed!  This was the line I took in Edinburgh.  I'd hold flyers in my hand openly, but without an extended arm to directing them at people.  And, if people wanted to approach my smiling, bearded countenance and take one, they could, and if they had questions, I was there to answer.  Alas, there was a slight trend towards an evangelism from some of the group, but everyone was having fun and getting into it, so I can't blame them.  I'm not one for getting to extrovert or excited, so goes my open, friendly, downtoearth way.  It's always gotten me results in life, and I'd thoroughly recommend it 8)

Quote from: revgms on August 20, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Unless you guys stop me, which is possible if you see I should be, I do intend to open an Abide center up in Maine, hopefully with in a year or so. But honestly, I have only the vaguest idea of what that would be. Should I/we, and what would that be like?

Hells no, why would anyone??  I think we need places like these.  What with the Dudeist Yoga Centre in the south of France coming into being in the near future I think we're gonna get a lot more people benefitting from Abidance, and maybe a few more bonafide dudes.

I'd love to open something like the Idler Academy.  Tom Hodgkinson really has something great going in that little shop of his!

My other half and I have a dream of opening a little bookshop/cafe where we can also hold evening events like book groups out front and roleplay gaming sessions outback.  Would love to get that off the ground one day and have an official Abiding Centre sticker/certificate for it to help further the word of Dude.  Wait... did I just form a lifegoal... *shudders and blinks* I feel funny....  ???

Long, slow, deep breaths, man - it's okay Dude - you're gonna be alright.  ;)

I think I just turned into Garth from Wayne's World 8)

Hey Ed.

Do you have any info on the guy opening the Dudeist centre in the South Of France?

Would be nice to hook up with other cats of the Abiding persuasion in France.
Or to just know that they're out there.

I started a thread called "Desperatlely Seeking Duder" trying to reconnect with him on the forum.  Someone said he is here, but not active enough to stand up and wave himself.

We think his foumn name is Boston Rockbury, but we've not been able to pin down his real life credentials.  You can, of course, message him on the forum and see if he gets the message :)

Now, there's an idea ...

BTW Opening a Dudeist caf?/Tiki mini- bar in the Parisian region would be cool too & if any city is in dire need of soewhere to chill it's here.
Just finding the spondoolix to do it is the problem.
T'ain't cheap around these here parts.

I know, I know, if you will it ...

Quote from: Reverend Dog on August 21, 2011, 06:33:23 AM
I know, I know, if you will it ...

... it's an even bigger dissapointment when it fails?

I'm sorry, was that too English a response? :P

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. " -
Samuel Beckett

He is a good man and thurrah. His real name is James Postlethwaite and his email is j.postlethwaite@orange.fr

Why thank you kindly, forumdude ...

Did anyone else have anythiny to say on the last issue, about sects and Abide University, etc?  Seems we didn't get a whole lot of opinions back on what Forumdude posted (just one post back over the page).

I think I already posted mine, but who has the time to go back 2 pages and check? I like the idea of Abide U. I don't think the idea of sects is one that needs to be pursued. abideism is really just a part of what dudeism is about to me, and to give it it's own sect sort of takes away from the other important messages that dudeism has to offer. I also think that because dudes come in so many different varieties and from so many different cultures that sects would ultimatly cause alienation and uneccesarily over expose the differences between people when we should focus on the things that we can say are all the same in us.

I would like to hear more about AU though. Are we thinking strictly online, or a physical place where people can come together and learn and grow?

Quote from: Rev. R Lewis on August 23, 2011, 10:56:53 AM
I would like to hear more about AU though. Are we thinking strictly online, or a physical place where people can come together and learn and grow?

I'd assumed it was going to be a mix.  Online mostly, but with the oppertunity to branch out in time, either with little "franchise" sites, like the Dudeist Yoga Centre in France, or any other places that would become Abide Centres people want to set up.

I think the idea has legs, it just needs to get up out of the recliner and use them.  That may take a while of course, because we're all attached (spiritually and physically) to our recliners :P

Moving at the speed of Dude! So yeah, you got time to go make a sandwich while we wait.

Dude, I like the idea of creating a model for setting "franchise" locations. Does anybody have any ideas on creating a model like this. I don't know the requirements for creating a "church" or whatever but if a dude could legally make his house a dudeist retreat or church or league or whatever I think it would be a great way to get the name out there and solidify our presence as an official "religion" and make it easier for dudes to find us. I also don't think too many dudes would mind the tax exemptions. After all its tough to abide sometimes when you gotta worry about feeding Uncle Sam's monkey.

Quote from: Rev. R Lewis on August 23, 2011, 12:21:25 PM
Dude, I like the idea of creating a model for setting "franchise" locations. Does anybody have any ideas on creating a model like this. I don't know the requirements for creating a "church" or whatever but if a dude could legally make his house a dudeist retreat or church or league or whatever I think it would be a great way to get the name out there and solidify our presence as an official "religion" and make it easier for dudes to find us. I also don't think too many dudes would mind the tax exemptions. After all its tough to abide sometimes when you gotta worry about feeding Uncle Sam's monkey.

Hmm, not sure on that one, Rev.

Also, not being a feeder of Uncle Sam's monkey, I wouldn't know what his diet consists of :P  I'm not sure such places are tax-exempt here in the UK, or in France where the Yoga Centre's going to be.

My idea was to use a shop as a base for learning, like Tom Hodgkinson's excellent Idler Academy in London.  Truly great little model of a bookshop/cafe/evening event location, just like my other half and I always invisioned.  Of course, if we ever get there, I'd love to do what I can in the name of Dudeism with it, even if it is just answering questions.

I think this whole train of thought's gonna open up a lot of possibilities.

Shame the Lebowski Bar in Edinburgh was such a non-dudeist place in the end.  What we do need is more dudely bars, like that one in eastern Europe where the guy has no price list, it's a pay-as-ya-feel setup.  Dudely cafe's, bars/pubs, duditation centres and whathaveyou would be a great thing to start pockmarking the face of the globe with.  Eh?

That sounds fine, just fine. I like the idea of free stores where people just drop off shit they don't use and people can come browse and take something they need. I don't know if it would work where i live though. I hope you can achieve that shop you have envisioned dude. Let me know if it happens Dude.

If I was going to build a church this is what it would look like .......
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/The14weed/Dude%20Stuff/jaspertipi.jpg)

If I was going to build a house this is what it would look like .....
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/The14weed/Dude%20Stuff/NightTipi.jpg)

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/The14weed/Dude%20Stuff/thumbs-up.png)

Hmmmmm, they look the same. Have to say, though; great places to put your rug!  ;D

That was my point ......  The most energy efficent, affordiable green home (building) and no permit required to put it up .... they make them up to thirtyfour feet in diamiter, a thirty foot diamiter Tipi will sit a hundred people in it with a six foot diamiter firepit.

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on August 23, 2011, 06:19:55 PM
Hmmmmm, they look the same. Have to say, though; great places to put your rug!  ;D

@4weeddude: you have any links to where to get a sweet ti-pi?

Gotta love the ti-pis :)

I see we left this with "actual churches"

I don't even use the term "church of the latter-day dude" because I'm not down with calling this religion a church.
Churches are a Christian thing.  Temple is a more generic term, but still, I don't like the implications of a place of worship and praise and ritual that temples (and indeed churches) implies.

We're not into those aspects of a communal area, we're into the social aspects and the talking/discussing aspects, like an ancient Greek forum.  The best term I can come up with off the top of my head if "Hangout", but that still doesn't seem to hit it for me.

I think the discussion on such buildings is not really relevent, as we don't have them and nor do I believe we plan to.  As I've seen it's a long-term debate "what if we had actual churches" and the like.  But, if we don't plan to get involved in all this temple-isation stuff, maybe we don't need to even think about it.  Is the creation of a Dudeist Centre really on the cards?  I know we're all discussing Dudeist Yoga Centres, and Dudeist Coffee Shops, and bars, and the like, as Abide Centres, but, does that really hit the nail?

I dunno.  I think we need a word, but Church, Temple, Hangout or Centre just don't fit it.  But, I guess it's like 42.  How can we come up with an answer if we don't know the question.  How can we name something if we don't know what it is or if we even want it? :P

Ok dudes...we can now move dudeism forward on the newly created Abideism board...Abiding without Lebowski)
It's at the bottom of the main board, but it can be moved if you so wish.
This should be interesting! 8)

I'm just a kid walkin' into the middle of a movie here, but hey -  maybe we all need to smoke a J, drink a Caucasian, and take'r easy. Dudeism isn't about spilling so much ink (pixels?) to TALK about a belief system and how to evangelize the rest of the world, and find meeting places. Shoosh, I seen that fail a few times before. Here we are, once again, the "haves" and the "have-nots", cause we're supposedly so enlightened. Religion is un-dude.

It's LIVIN' it that makes you a dude. Hence the word "abiding". If yer a livin' example of it, people will be attracted to you and ask questions. Abiding will spread on its own. "Grass roots" I think they call it where I come from. Otherwise, them folks lookin' at all this chatterin' from the outside will tend to tell you to shut the fuck up, 'cause yer just makin' noise.

And I know you see this comin' -

This is all just, like, my opinion man.

Now, I'm gonna take my own advice and shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Hominid on August 28, 2011, 08:22:39 PM
I'm just a kid walkin' into the middle of a movie here, but hey -  maybe we all need to smoke a J, drink a Caucasian, and take'r easy. Dudeism isn't about spilling so much ink (pixels?) to TALK about a belief system and how to evangelize the rest of the world, and find meeting places. Shoosh, I seen that fail a few times before. Here we are, once again, the "haves" and the "have-nots", cause we're supposedly so enlightened. Religion is un-dude.

It's LIVIN' it that makes you a dude. Hence the word "abiding". If yer a livin' example of it, people will be attracted to you and ask questions. Abiding will spread on its own. "Grass roots" I think they call it where I come from. Otherwise, them folks lookin' at all this chatterin' from the outside will tend to tell you to shut the fuck up, 'cause yer just makin' noise.

And I know you see this comin' -

This is all just, like, my opinion man.

Now, I'm gonna take my own advice and shut the fuck up.

Yep, I agree with you pard...8)

I might be new around here, but IMO this thread is a terrific example of one of the best aspects of Dudeism/Abideism in action--the open and respectful exchange of positive ideas, thoughts, notions, and what-have-you, with a like-minded goal of improving the human condition on a global scale.

One of the most difficult things about moving Dudeism forward will be explaining it to people in a way that makes sense to them; some people will never understand it no matter how hard we try even if they're open to it.  It's a very personal thing that means different things to different people.  To me, it's...well, let me explain by example.  When Bruce Lee was developing his personal martial arts philosophy (which he eventually called Jeet Kune Do) he examined every martial art known to him at the time; he adopted the styles that he felt worked for him, and rejected the ones that didn't.  In doing so, he created what he felt was a simpler and more effective form of self-defense that was free of the rigid limitations of the traditional styles.  I believe this is how most of us practice Dudeism--we take the best parts of established beliefs (religious or otherwise), philosophies, concepts, expressed wisdoms, imagination, common courtesy, acceptance, and (when it's due) respect for others, and apply them to our lives as we see fit for the purpose of making our lives simpler and more enjoyable, free from the rules, restrictions, and rituals of most established religions.  Trying to explain that to uptight thinkers in a single "mission statement"...well, I'll leave that for wiser minds to figure out.

With regards to iconography...well Dudes, I just don't know.  The Big Lebowski and The Dude are most certainly the inspiration for Dudeism and probably should be represented somehow, but I would agree that most casual observers will tend to get hung up on the imagery and see we Dudeists as nothing more than a bunch of cult movie fans who have taken our fondness for this particular little film to an unanticipated new level.  Again, wiser minds.

Just sharing my thoughts; feel free to disagree.   ;D

since dudeism is a digital religion for most of us will never meet each other, surely the forum is our temple or mecca or what have you?

Well, Rev. Al, you're pretty correct.

I didn't read all the thread, too exhausting, so I'll try to say as little bu****its as possible. :)

As you know I'm pretty much for the idea of spreading Dudeism around and going with it in the physical world, so to say. And obviously I think that the Abide University and Abiding Centres are a fucking cool idea. But first we should probably arrive at a definition of what Dudeism is.

I mean that before building something we need to have some definite building blocks, and common for everyone. While a Dudenomination can be pretty much everything, from a yoga center to a dudely bar, it has to have a common denominator. This is not to franchise something but to protect Dudeism from those assholes who think they are Dudeists while in reality they are paraquats, and we all know that they exists. Without clear guidelines we could end up with swingers clubs who say that they are religious places. Now, consenting adults can do whatever they feel cool but are we sure that we want Dudeism linked to swingers clubs? Because it will happen, just like some people come to the forum because they think is a stoners'  club. Again, nothing wrong with it but that's not our religion.

It's like opening a bar where everyone can decide his own price, sooner or later it will become full of paraquats who just want free beverages, and if you have to feed the monkey you can't give things for free. Or you get broken.

Once we have a common ground we can begin to build upon it. As I usually say Dudeism is like water, and even if water can become almost everything water remains water. Without a clear definition of what water is we will end up nowhere. Or one day we'll find that everything has been fucked up and crashed on the mountain.

I mean we find difficult to agree that Dudeism can be for both Atheists and Christians so I think we can't go further until the muddy water has cleared.

First we need to lay down as simply as possible what Dudeism is (tenets, principles...) and then we should have clear guidelines about Dudeism Centres. I know it's boring but given that this is not 'Nam rules are needed. Just as the forum does to keep away spammers. Few simple rules and everyone is, and remains, happy.

Clearly, imdo.  8)

Quote from: milnie on November 28, 2011, 11:39:36 AM
since dudeism is a digital religion for most of us will never meet each other, surely the forum is our temple or mecca or what have you?

Or maybe a place of Dudeist fellowship? A Dudeist fellowship hall and family restaurant.

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on November 29, 2011, 03:19:10 AM
Or maybe a place of Dudeist fellowship? A Dudeist fellowship hall and family restaurant.

A Dudeist Mead Hall

Quote from: meekon5 on November 29, 2011, 06:54:07 AM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on November 29, 2011, 03:19:10 AM
Or maybe a place of Dudeist fellowship? A Dudeist fellowship hall and family restaurant.

A Dudeist Mead Hall

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_setmfvOnLGo/R1ToTvWh8qI/AAAAAAAAAAo/SwdSIqlIgvY/s400/Hrothgar+2.jpg)

I'm staying, finishing my wine...finishing my wine. ;D

Or maybe a place of Dudeist fellowship? A Dudeist fellowship hall and family restaurant.
[/quote]

The Lord of the Pins:The Fellowship of the Dude?

Quote from: milnie on November 29, 2011, 07:20:14 AM
The Lord of the Pins:The Fellowship of the Dude?

Well done you win todays worst pun award, it did make me grimace when I read this.

;D

Though thinking about it we do have enough Dwarven looking individuals to do the Hobbit.

one tries ones best M5 :D

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on November 29, 2011, 01:31:50 AMAs you know I'm pretty much for the idea of spreading Dudeism around and going with it in the physical world, so to say. And obviously I think that the Abide University and Abiding Centres are a fucking cool idea. But first we should probably arrive at a definition of what Dudeism is...First we need to lay down as simply as possible what Dudeism is (tenets, principles...) and then we should have clear guidelines about Dudeism Centres. I know it's boring but given that this is not 'Nam rules are needed. Just as the forum does to keep away spammers. Few simple rules and everyone is, and remains, happy.

Clearly, imdo.  8)

I definitely agree with everything in your post, but felt these points should be focused on.  Everything needed for a basic understanding of Dudeism is on the main site, but somehow it needs to be assembled into a single uncompromised first draft if Dudeism is to be seriously recognized as a legitimate religion by the uptight thinkers in our various governments worldwide.  I wonder if Dudes Benjamin and Eutsey thought it would be this exhausting when they started this...   :-\

Edit:  Leave it to the new guy on the lanes to fuck things up.  After doing a little light reading in some of these threads, I now realize Forumdude is already well-versed in what it would take for Dudeism to become a legit religion, at least here in the U.S..  I take comfort in that, and have faith that it will happen if and when it should.  Until then, I'm just gonna keep takin' 'er easy for all the sinners.   8)

Quote from: meekon5 on November 29, 2011, 08:24:02 AM

Quote from: milnie on November 29, 2011, 07:20:14 AM
The Lord of the Pins:The Fellowship of the Dude?

Well done you win todays worst pun award, it did make me grimace when I read this.

;D

Though thinking about it we do have enough Dwarven looking individuals to do the Hobbit.

Yeah, but do we have enough clean-shaven guys to be the halfling??   ;D


ps, on topic: Nice to see some people flogging this old dead horse.  I'm enjoying the perspectives of the newly vocal members of our group :)

Rev. Al you're fucking correct again. And surely DL knows what to do and where Dudeism should go, our debates are anyway useful, I guess, to help having ideas and such, and to clarify our train of thoughts and keep it limber. At the end if he's the Tiger Dude there's a reason, even if these open the door to debating if we are golfers or caddies.  ;D I'm kidding obviously.

Also I'd add that the uncompromised first draft on Dudeism should be useful also for "newcomers" or those who have never played golf to undestand what we are talking about. As you correctly say DL will do what's needed when it's needed. I guess he talks pretty often with the Stranger but wander if he prefers beer or sarsaparilla.  8)

Rev. Ed, the horse isn't dead, he's just chilling out a little.

I've always thought the Valhalla to be a pretty cool place to stay, free beers, viking ladies and so on, but the Lord of Pins could be another good concept. My beard is just a centimeter long as if longer my moustaches would interfere when I'm eating or drinking. Can I be half dwarf and half halfling? Or, given my preference for viking ladies just stick with Dudehirrims?

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on November 30, 2011, 04:52:22 AM
Rev. Ed, the horse isn't dead, he's just chilling out a little.

Yeah, that's bad terminology on my part, that didn't come across as a I meant it to sound!  I mean it was nice to see it brought back to life, not to imply that it was dead and gone *slaps on forehead*.

Just goes to prove, you can try and achieve six impossible things before breakfast, but never try and write eloquently on a forum before work :P

perhaps the heisenberg principle applies: by trying to fix or fully undertand one aspect of dudeism, we lose all understanding of the other parts.
is it not the nature of dudeism just to be ... and be happy with it? dude forbit we should examine it too closely and find it is naught but the perverse drug fuelled projeny of oliver

abide dudes.

Well Rev. Ed, I've understood what you said, I tried to come out with a kind of joke but messed it up. My poor English.  ;D

milnie, well, on one side you're probably right, on the other we can't look at the moon thinking it's the sun. We can appreciate its beauty anyway but lose the correct frame of reference. Or understand one thing for another. Like the difference between the uncompromised first draft and all the following papers, they might be good but they are not the original one.

Does it appear that I've lost my train of thought somewhere?  :D

Dudeism is ok the way it is. We all bring our past knowledge into our pristhood to spread the word and knowledge has no boundries otherwise were a dead ended society and start critizing and drawing lines in the sand this will not stand.

Yes dude you're right, but how would you answer to the question What is Dudeism? Or Who is a Dude?  Or both? 8)

So are you trying to JUDGE Dudeist ??? ???  I think in Dudeism that would not abide.

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on November 30, 2011, 04:52:22 AMAnd surely DL knows what to do and where Dudeism should go, our debates are anyway useful, I guess, to help having ideas and such, and to clarify our train of thoughts and keep it limber.

Absolutely.  And if someone's train of thoughts gets sidetracked or goes completely off the rails, it's good to have compeers to put 'em back on a Dudely path.

Quote from: milnie on November 30, 2011, 08:32:13 AMperhaps the heisenberg principle applies: by trying to fix or fully undertand one aspect of dudeism, we lose all understanding of the other parts.

That's always a possibility and an important thing to be mindful of.  I prefer to think of if this way:  By attempting to fully understand one aspect of Dudeism, there's a chance that new shit will come to light on other aspects.  Still, there are so many aspects to Dudeism that we must remember not to focus on one aspect at the exclusion of all others.

No Sailing Dude, I'm not trying to judge anyone here.  8) But what would be your answer if someone asks you What is Dudeism and Who is a Dude?

Rev. Al, mark it 8.  :)

 I usually say I am a minister for the Church Of The Latter Day Dude and sence I'm 7th generation baptist and a medical pot smoker for my arthertis I say I'm christian with a take it easy message.  I'm almost 62 years old and am a owner and caretaker of a small apt complex after a long career of designing nuclear fuel and building power plants and have a great wife who insist I have long hair down my back and we sail on our 34 ft 3 state room catamaran named We Be Jammin . I play bluegrass music on the Dobro, Banjo Guitar, Bass. Most folks don't ask much more unless they want to be saved as a Dude. There's a lot of mormons you know The Church Of Latter Day Saints in my neighborhood so it's always fun to see the young missionaries faces when I say "take it easy is my message" it kind of takes the air out of there hard core sails pitch.

I've been thinking about doing weddings on our catamaran.

Just my opinion - but, Christianity has nothing to do with Dudeism, which is Zen-based, so there is a very clear distinction between the two. Watering down your Christian stance to the point of saying you just "take it easy" will insult the rest of your Baptist dudes, dude. I used to be a fundie, and knew I had to reneg on its tenets, cause - like - it's all reactionary, dogmatic, judgmental, and super right-wing.  Watered-down Baptists are just that - watered down. Just like a watered-down anything - ain't worth shit to the founding fathers who sacrificed everything. Not to say they they were right - but they sacrificed everything to THINK their stance was THE ONLY stance...

Religion sucks big time.

Ooooh... did I type that out loud? Shoosh....

Quote from: Hominid on December 01, 2011, 04:19:50 AM
Just my opinion - but, Christianity has nothing to do with Dudeism, which is Zen-based, so there is a very clear distinction between the two. Watering down your Christian stance to the point of saying you just "take it easy" will insult the rest of your Baptist dudes, dude. I used to be a fundie, and knew I had to reneg on its tenets, cause - like - it's all reactionary, dogmatic, judgmental, and super right-wing.  Watered-down Baptists are just that - watered down. Just like a watered-down anything - ain't worth shit to the founding fathers who sacrificed everything. Not to say they they were right - but they sacrificed everything to THINK their stance was THE ONLY stance...

Religion sucks big time.

Ooooh... did I type that out loud? Shoosh....

Well, this is just like my opinion, man, but as I said in another thread......

"There are dudes in just about every walk of life. We have Buddhist dudes, Pagan dudes, Christian dudes, Atheist dudes, Hindu dudes, etc. Dudeism is a thing of the inner person, of the heart, not restricted by a person's other righteous pursuits."

I think Dudeism is enhanced when there is input from all people; it is made stronger and with much more to offer when it is the child of a multitude of thought and experiences.

IMHO

I don't think we can condemn religion out of hand, or based on any personal animosity (that's one of those things Dawkins does that makes me hate him so :)).  It's true, from a modern, rational, freethinking perspective some religions hold some negative qualities, but each to their own.

We've always prided ourselves here, so I believe, on accepting the views of others, as long as they mesh with our own, and aren't being shoehorned in with our own.  I'm not a Christian, I don't have a problem with Christians, or Christian-Dudeists, but I will stand with those who want to keep unsuitable Christian Dogma from Dudeism's doors.

We like to pick and choose what others have already said that goes along with what we feel, so we incorporate aspects of a whole range of faiths here.  If religion was so awful, then our Taoist/Buddhists sides would be defunct and Dudeism would slump into that horrid movie-cult bubble that my original point was to try and step one or more feet out of.  If we're not a religion, we're just doing a damned good job of pretending to be one.  And, if we are, then we need to reach out our hands and join in with our spiritual compeers where we agree (Taosim, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Rastafarianism, Shinto etc...).  Let's not get hung up on what's WRONG with outher religions, but what's RIGHT with them :)

Ooohhh I like stirring the pot...

Taoism is a philosophy, not a religion, so let's not water down Dudeism by saying "we're all in the same boat". Any person willing to claim themselves a Baptist (which is Christian BTW), or a Catholic for that matter, is doing so for one of two reasons: either they believe in the tenets of their faith, which directly contradict Dudeism, or they are doing so because it was their upbringing, their social culture, etc... they don't have a huge stake in it, but it's like - a comfortable label. Many don't even know the true history of their belief system; if they did, they'd puke. I point out the Spanish inquisition as an example... or the Baptists who burned the houses of others who weren't, like - Baptists! (I know my church history).

That's the distinction I was making. I stand by my observation that religion sucks. Just look at the zealots who use it as a convenient excuse to blow shit up. That, as opposed to Taoism, which is for the introspective, observant, calm, loving, caring person - no room in that approach to life to be hateful and blow shit up.

If you want to call yourself a Christian, then have the balls to be one, lock, stock, and barrel. Hate homos & lesbians, agree with infanticide, and send to hell anyone who disagrees with you. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe after you've labelled yourself; any religion by its very nature is exclusive, not inclusive, so by including all religions in Dudeism, you're contradicting yourself. Philosophy 101.

Taoism is a *thinking* person's philosophy. Religion is for either the zealots, or the lazy. Saying otherwise to sound all-encompassing and loving is not only short-sighted, it waters down Dudeism.  Again, there's a clear distinction between religion and philosophy. But if your philosophy is to say that all religions are OK, then you don't know religion...

M5 - you've studied this shit - am I wrong?

Quote from: Sailing Dude on December 01, 2011, 04:04:33 AM
I usually say I am a minister for the Church Of The Latter Day Dude and sence I'm 7th generation baptist and a medical pot smoker for my arthertis I say I'm christian with a take it easy message.  I'm almost 62 years old and am a owner and caretaker of a small apt complex after a long career of designing nuclear fuel and building power plants and have a great wife who insist I have long hair down my back and we sail on our 34 ft 3 state room catamaran named We Be Jammin . I play bluegrass music on the Dobro, Banjo Guitar, Bass. Most folks don't ask much more unless they want to be saved as a Dude. There's a lot of mormons you know The Church Of Latter Day Saints in my neighborhood so it's always fun to see the young missionaries faces when I say "take it easy is my message" it kind of takes the air out of there hard core sails pitch.

I've been thinking about doing weddings on our catamaran.

Fucking A, Sailing Dude, that's pretty cool. That's really interesting, and mark it 8 about weddings on your catamaran, far out. I'm sure your interesting background, together with the long hair, will add a lot to our beach community. Far out again.  8)

DB, Rev. Ed, I think you both summarized the point. Far out or mark it 8.

Hominid Dude, I'm not m5, my beard is much shorter and I don't have his deep knowledge of philosophical stuff nevertheless I'd add my two cents. Imdo obviously.  8)

Your point is not missed, only that you say Christian when you should say something else. JCD just said be cool with others, what others did in his name it's another thing. I know it's like splitting hairs but we as Dudes try to look at things from an impartial point of view without judging others based on our beliefs but on reality. And reality is that JCD seems to have been a cool Dude while most of those who said and say that they are following his words are a bunch of reactionaries and nihilists. However we can't mix the two things. And also it's offensive for someone who's a Christian because he likes the original first draft of JCD to be mixed with Inquisition and similar assholes. Also, Taoism today is much different from original Taoism just like Buddhism, there is a kind of literal connection right? 8)

The point is: Dudeism is a philosophical religion which going at the root of spirituality can be applied to everything or is Dudeism a philosophical atheist anti religious movement who is just against anything else?

Taoism is a philosophy but a philosophy can be applied to a religion, Dudeism is a philosophy, The Church of the Latter Day Dude is a church. For me they are the same thing much like a Shaolin Temple is based on Buddist philosophy; but that's just my opinion.

Sorry if I can't be clearer but I'm at my second evening beer.  ;D

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on December 01, 2011, 02:25:43 PM
DB, Rev. Ed, I think you both summarized the point. Far out or mark it 8.

Hominid Dude, I'm not m5, my beard is much shorter and I don't have his deep knowledge of philosophical stuff nevertheless I'd add my two cents. Imdo obviously.  8)

Your point is not missed, only that you say Christian when you should say something else. JCD just said be cool with others, what others did in his name it's another thing. I know it's like splitting hairs but we as Dudes try to look at things from an impartial point of view without judging others based on our beliefs but on reality. And reality is that JCD seems to have been a cool Dude while most of those who said and say that they are following his words are a bunch of reactionaries and nihilists. However we can't mix the two things. And also it's offensive for someone who's a Christian because he likes the original first draft of JCD to be mixed with Inquisition and similar assholes. Also, Taoism today is much different from original Taoism just like Buddhism, there is a kind of literal connection right? 8)

The point is: Dudeism is a philosophical religion which going at the root of spirituality can be applied to everything or is Dudeism a philosophical atheist anti religious movement who is just against anything else?

Taoism is a philosophy but a philosophy can be applied to a religion, Dudeism is a philosophy, The Church of the Latter Day Dude is a church. For me they are the same thing much like a Shaolin Temple is based on Buddist philosophy; but that's just my opinion.

Sorry if I can't be clearer but I'm at my second evening beer.  ;D

Andrea - Jesus did say to be cool, but he also espoused abuse and violence (John 2:12, Matthew 10:34). And, Christians follow the bible, which is chock full of rape, murder, infanticide, you name it - all ORDERED by God (see Judges 21:10-24). So if you call yourself a Christian, you are aligning yourself to the whole story, not just what you want to pick and choose. By doing that, you're creating another religion, another belief system.

I'm not claiming that Dudeism should be anti-religious - I'm saying Dudeism should not include religions that teach one to be REALLY undude.  It's a contradiction...

I am most certainly an amateur when it comes to theological study.  But based on my observations and experiences with regards to the so-called "Western" religions, there is a difference between "religion" and "belief" or "faith".  What I mean by that is, "belief/faith" comes from what is gained from the teachings of their various deities, and "religion" is the rules and rituals established by each denomination that directs it's followers in the "proper" ways in which to honor those teachings and deities.  For example, one religion mandates their male followers cover their heads when entering a place of worship, while another mandates their male followers remove any head coverings, yet both are done as a gesture/symbol of respect for their deities???  And Catholicism...hoo boy, it's filled with rituals.  To quote the prophet Tom Lehrer:

"First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your Rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect and,
Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!"

"Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playing it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!"

Sounds exhaustiing.  And yet, I believe there are some worthwhile teachings in the Christian bible if you look hard enough, regardless of the fact that the modern day version is filled with some very un-Dude horrors (if taken literally), contradictions, and is missing several teachings that were omitted centuries ago because some uptight thinkers deemed them "unnecessary" (reincarnation, for example).

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that I think we should not dismiss any valid "beliefs" or "faiths" simply because we disagree with the "religion" that brings them to us; enlightenment is enlightenment regardless of the source or the messenger.  Of course, that's just, like, my opinion, man; I could be wrong.

Rev Al: I like your point that religion and faith are two different things, in that religion is external, and faith/belief is internal. Important distinction. Religion does have ritual, but it is the FUNCTION of religion to teach its specific messages, contained in whatever sacred writings they adhere to, in addition to instructing their adherents to follow their leader's examples and teachings.  If you belong to religion "XYZ", then you gotta go to their church, follow their rules, and believe in their teachings. That's what religion *is*. That's why it sucks. And that's why I like how the Church of the Latter Day Dude is a parody of religion. Tickles my funny bone...

Right on Hominid, definitely the right frame of reference.  What cracks me up is how all of the Christian denominations are allegedly teaching the same lessons from the same source, but if you don't practice "their" religion "their" way you won't make it into the finals.  Talk about splitting hairs!

Well Dudes your posts are very interesting. Actually I joined Dudeism because it has little rituals and it's not exhausting. Also it's pretty simple to remember even when drunk. Anyway, going back to the topic, the fact that two of the biggest world religions, Christianity and Buddhism, have so many interpretations and sects derives on one side from the durned human nature and on the other side that their original teachings are either complicated, or obscure, or so much loose that anyone can jump up and add another point of view. The other two great religions are probably so fundamentalist that going away from their written text interpretation is forbidden. They cut your johnson, sometimes literally.

Anyway they can be seen as trees grown from a root which now have hundreds leaves, what we are debating here is to find a way for Dudeism to stick to the root without going with the leaves hundred years from now. Also the beauty of Dudeism, except from accepting everyone who is a dude, is that if it finds a similar root it takes what is useful from it. We predate what's cool from every good source. Or better we recognize the dudely part of other religions, philosophy and spiritual paths. Also, even if the word religion makes some people uncomfortable we must keep in mind that religion has a kind of legal status and protection while philosophy and spirituality have not. And in this world of nihilists it's an inportant thing, imdo. Also words don't kill anyone, it's the human interpretation who kills.

Am I wrong?

Quote from: Hominid on December 01, 2011, 04:34:22 PM

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on December 01, 2011, 02:25:43 PM
DB, Rev. Ed, I think you both summarized the point. Far out or mark it 8.

Hominid Dude, I'm not m5, my beard is much shorter and I don't have his deep knowledge of philosophical stuff nevertheless I'd add my two cents. Imdo obviously.  8)

Your point is not missed, only that you say Christian when you should say something else. JCD just said be cool with others, what others did in his name it's another thing. I know it's like splitting hairs but we as Dudes try to look at things from an impartial point of view without judging others based on our beliefs but on reality. And reality is that JCD seems to have been a cool Dude while most of those who said and say that they are following his words are a bunch of reactionaries and nihilists. However we can't mix the two things. And also it's offensive for someone who's a Christian because he likes the original first draft of JCD to be mixed with Inquisition and similar assholes. Also, Taoism today is much different from original Taoism just like Buddhism, there is a kind of literal connection right? 8)

The point is: Dudeism is a philosophical religion which going at the root of spirituality can be applied to everything or is Dudeism a philosophical atheist anti religious movement who is just against anything else?

Taoism is a philosophy but a philosophy can be applied to a religion, Dudeism is a philosophy, The Church of the Latter Day Dude is a church. For me they are the same thing much like a Shaolin Temple is based on Buddist philosophy; but that's just my opinion.

Sorry if I can't be clearer but I'm at my second evening beer.  ;D

Andrea - Jesus did say to be cool, but he also espoused abuse and violence (John 2:12, Matthew 10:34). And, Christians follow the bible, which is chock full of rape, murder, infanticide, you name it - all ORDERED by God (see Judges 21:10-24). So if you call yourself a Christian, you are aligning yourself to the whole story, not just what you want to pick and choose. By doing that, you're creating another religion, another belief system.

I'm not claiming that Dudeism should be anti-religious - I'm saying Dudeism should not include religions that teach one to be REALLY undude.  It's a contradiction...

Well dude you're surely right when you say that Dudeism should not include religions undude, a mark it 8 assumption. But you're slightly wrong when you link the Bible to Christianity, they have nothing to do with each other. The Old Testament is one thing, Christ teachings are another, whatever zealots said and say. Also, from a balanced point of view we know that even Gospels are more or less wrong (Council of Nicaea transformed everything). I just think that we can't throw the baby with the water.

If we can accept that our Taoism is different from nowadays Taoism then I can't see why we can't accept that JCD is cool while the Bible and almost all other books are not. Also I agree that a big part of the men with a black, or red, pijamas are undude, but can we say the same of friars?

And, as regards Matthew 10:34 the fact that JCD was pacific doesn't makes him a sap.  ;D

Sometimes I'm a f****ng amateur, I forgot to say that if JCD was as they say he is today, or during the Inquisition, when btw they said it was God desire and not JCD, and during the Crusades, when they said God wants it and not JCD, if he was as they say he would have never been boarded because he was as undude as they were, and are. But he was boarded so probably he was just too dude for its time and place. That's why these days the original JCD followers have disappeared, most of them anyway, they've probably been boarded through the ages but this doesn't mean that there are some still around. These are the dudes we are talking about. Imdo.  ;D

I think my point still stands:  Don't focus on the bad, focus on the good.

I get what you're saying there, Hominid, about you can't pick and choose when it comes to your religion, but I ain't any of those religions, so I can pick and choose what I like :)

Dudeism is about taking the good from other philosophies and blending it in with our own ways.  If someone's already pinned down something great, why reinvent the wheel, why not just put the round thing on our Dudely cart?

To shut out anything that's come from a religion that any of us finds distasteful as a whole is not down with acceptance.   Dudeism is, at its core, about acceptance of a simple ideal, not about hate.  If you play the hate game and the "get away, we don't like your people here" game then aren't we just like those branches of religions that do the same?  Aren't we like those Christians who think Muslims worship a different god and so think they're heretics?  Can't we see, that in the same way Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same god, Dudeists share ideals with most religions that we can shake hands and agree on?

Ok, maybe some will look down on us and not want to shake hands... Fuck'em.  That doesn't reflect badly on us, just them.  But if we don't shake a hand that's offered to us, that makes us the pricks.  If they've got some common ground, let them in, if they're here to tell us the opposite of what we think, tell them thanks but not thanks, but still offer them a beer.  If they get pissed off that you don't want to listen, let them run off and brood... no beer for them :)

Dudeism isn't about making enemies, it's about making friends.  If we turn other faiths into enemies just because we think they're "wrong", surely we're just doing to them what we hate them doing to others?

It's the Nick Griffin argument:
BBC is besieged by protesters angry that Nick Griffin, the BNP (far right political party) leader is allowed to be a guest on Question Time (a political Q&A roadshow).  Their argument?  "Nick Griffin should not be allowed a national platform because he's a fascist!".  Essentially trying to fight fascism with fascism.  "He tells other people what they can and cannot do, so we should tell him what he can and cannot do!"  FAIL!  What should have, and thankfully did happen, was that democracy and freedom prevailed, the BBC let him onto the show and people turned on him, making him a joke on national TV.

Don't fight fascism with fascism, and don't fight close-minded religion with close-minded religion :D

Quote: "But you're slightly wrong when you link the Bible to Christianity, they have nothing to do with each other."
Andrea: not to sound insulting, but you don't know what you're talking about. The bible IS THE FOUNDATION OF Christianity. Without it, Christianity would have absolutely nothing to stand on.

BUT, after all is said and done, new shit has come to light: it turns out that the bible is just a regurgitation of earlier "sacred" texts that came out of ancient Egypt anyways; there is no historical Jesus; all the stories are just a repetition of ones written eons before, i.e. the virgin birth, John the Baptists, the 3 wise men, etc etc etc - all come from earlier writings - same characters, different names. Jesus is based on the Egyptian god named Horus. Look it up. It's all hogwash people... 

http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/black-people-wrote-the-bible/

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 06:07:32 AM
Quote: "But you're slightly wrong when you link the Bible to Christianity, they have nothing to do with each other."
Andrea: not to sound insulting, but you don't know what you're talking about. The bible IS THE FOUNDATION OF Christianity. Without it, Christianity would have absolutely nothing to stand on.

Personally, I'd say it has plenty to stand on.  Surely the New Testament is what sets Christianity apart from Judaism and Islam.  Christianity depends on the belief in Christ, as both a prophet (as the Muslims believe him to be) and the son/incarnation of God.  The bible may record what he said and did (apparently), but the new testament isn't so much a sacred text as a biography :P  It focuses not on what God says, but what Jesus (as the man, not the Deity) says.  It's a record of thought and deed, not a set of stone commandments.

That might just be my opinion on the matter, but I think taking the gospels as gospel is mything the point somewhat ;D

Rev. Ed. C.:

I'm not espousing hatred and close-minded religion; you get me wrong. People are cool; it's the religious systems themselves that have it wrong. Listen to my words: religion sucks. The mechanized, industrialized institutions that perpetuate hate, and say that "our way is the ONLY way" are at fault, not the innocent followers who are duped by their white-washed propaganda machine that gladly take their tithes every Sunday. (Or Saturday). Every religion has good - yes, I totally agree, and synthesizing a belief system out of those elements is the basis for a lot of positive evolution of the human race right now.  

An important distinction must be made between religion and philosophy.  They are as different as water and oil. Dudeism is a philosophy that is inclusive, I absolutely agree. Exclusivity in ANY belief system is the hallmark of prejudice, bias, and serves as fodder for zealots who like to blow shit up. No beer for you!

With all this, I'm trying to make people think about what religion REALLY is. Its history, the real basis for its existence... most people haven't a fucking clue how much it was built on evil, prejudice, hatred, and bloodshed. Words mean little when the actions of the founders (and deities) make our world wars look like child's play.

"That might just be my opinion on the matter, but I think taking the gospels as gospel is mything the point somewhat"

Smart - myths are an interesting study... Joseph Campbell has a lot of interesting insights into the role of myth in our current society.

Anyways, an underlying truth here is that Jesus is not a historical character - he's a (I'm repeating myself here) regurgitation of the ancient Egyptian god named Horus. It's all just hearsay... That, plus the fact that we forget how he espoused abuse and violence. Not such a cool dude IMHO.

I get what you're saying there, Hominid.  I do understand how we got to where we are in the state of religions and you're spot on.  Of course, a lot of the time religion was a masque for politics and I feel that sort of thing, although a part of the religion's history, should be struck from the doctrine.

I mean, when was the last time a Christian said the Crusades were really god's will and that they stood by them?  If anyone does stand by the crusades as a Christian act... they're an extremist :)

So, while I don't deny the history and the consequences in all religions (forget ye not those extremist Buddhists who went around doing all that killing), I think religion is indeed philosophy (/theology) at its core and that the bad stuff is a corruption of true religion.

Which essentially means we agree on philosophy being good and the other stuff being bad, but we just disagree on whether the bad should really be lumped in with the religion so much.  It's hard because I know some religions do have some horrid stuff in them, but I think a lot of that is bad translation and corruption on a human level.  The whole thing's laid down in stone... but no one can decide what the stones mean... bugger :)

I didn't mean to accuse you of discriminating against religion(s), I just mean to point out that as far as I think Dudeism should be concerned, we let the good in and tell the bad that this is a private residence.  But it looks like once again, on that we agree :)

I think I had a crossed wire back there somewhere... damn you forum-theology!!! :P

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 06:48:31 AM
"That might just be my opinion on the matter, but I think taking the gospels as gospel is mything the point somewhat"

Smart - myths are an interesting study... Joseph Campbell has a lot of interesting insights into the role of myth in our current society.

Anyways, an underlying truth here is that Jesus is not a historical character - he's a (I'm repeating myself here) regurgitation of the ancient Egyptian god named Horus. It's all just hearsay... That, plus the fact that we forget how he espoused abuse and violence. Not such a cool dude IMHO.

Actually, I heard it bares a lot of parallels with Mithras, a figure from Roman mythology.  Which is why Christ's birthday was made 25/12, because that was Mithras' birthday, and as we all know, the Romans did their best to amalgamate the new Christian faith with their old ways and the pagan ways.  Hence we get Christmas which takes elements of Saturnalia, and Easter which takes elements of pagan fertility celebrations (unless Jesus laid eggs...??).

Christ is possibly, much like Lao Tzu, an amalgam of many different things.  Some say he was the son of God, some say he was the 3rd prophet of god, between Abraham (or was it Moses, I forget who comes first) and Mohammad, some say he was just a man who was wise, some say he was a many who studied Buddhism in the east for many years.  We'll never know.

And, much like with Lao Tzu's philosophies, it doesn't matter who said them, just that they made good sense and speak from and to the heart.

Ya, it helps to understand the history. It was actually the emperor Constantine who, in the 3rd century, appeased both Christians and Pagans by combining the various celebrations into one: hence we have Christmas on the 25th of December, originally a Pagan ritual (decorated trees and all). The Persian god Mithras predated Jesus by 600 years;  Horus by 25 centuries, but both (all?) have identical qualities. Speaks to me of plagiarism, which totally devalues their legitimate contribution to whatever belief system you want to adhere to. Unless of course, you like stories about Santa Claus and the Easter bunny...

In the end, it's how you live your life. Your actions prove your beliefs, not the other way around. That's why I'm so hard on religion: so many people hang their hat on their "label", but their actions speak otherwise. Fuck religion. If you're a nice person, then I don't give a shit about what you believe, because it's all words anyways. I've come across beautiful, wonderful human beings from all walks of life. The best ones do not adhere to any religion, or philosophy for that matter. They just ARE what they ARE. The intellect and emotions are not engaged in any kind of dogmatic, religious justification for their actions... it's simply how they live.

Hominid Dude, you're not insulting, we're just exchanging opinion here so no one is insulted. 8)

Anyway I doubt somewhere JCD talked or dug the Old Testament, but as Rev. Ed points out everything has been modified and rewritten during the Council of Nicaea and the Middle Age so no one for sure can say where the truth rests (and this is true for both who dig or not JCD), apart having a chance to have a look at the Vatican's Biblioteque which is a bit unpractical.

I base my opinion on the Gospel of Thomas only as it's probably one of the first drafts and it should be uncompromised, but I dig the parables anyway, and just forget the rest. For me a real Christian is someone whose first thought is "Cool man", and also I'm not strictly a Christian but a Dudeist Priest only that I find Christians (those who just are not f***ng interested in the Old Testament) as cool as Pagans, Buddhists, whatever. Probably the Sufis has the same problem with Islam, Rev. Ed can probably explain this better than me. Also let's not forget that here in Italy we grew up seeing JCD as kind of compeer, now things have changed a bit and we'll probably have to add Mohammed, which is not strictly a compeer. Or a Dude.

If I'm right the timeline should be Thorah which has been copied in the Bible which has been copied in the Qumran. It's a long tradition for religions to copycat each other, especially after one wins over another as our pagan compeers know about the Christmas tree and half of the Catholic points of view. I didn't know though that everything comes from Egypt and Horus, that's fu***ng interesting man.

JCD is not an historical character, it might be, but the same things applies to Lao Tze and The Dude, what's wrong with this?

And let's not forget that those uptight paraquats you're talking about would never be interested in Dudeism because it's way too cool for their uptight nature. Because it's always the human nature: uptights religions have an appeal for uptights people, if the world was made only by cool people all uptight religions would just die.

As you rightly say a lot of people hang their hat to something and behave in a different way, at times it also happens to Dudeists. But this can also mean that someone for a reason or another belongs to an uptight religion while being a good hearted person, which then usually says f**k religion and goes his or her way. For me the best way is always to just ask if someone is a Dude or not, whatever his religion, philosophy or whathaveyou. That's what I try to do, only that I apply this to everyone.

The fact that I find the uncompromised JCD as cool as The Dude, only because these are the two characters I know better, I think doesn't prevent me from being a Dude. Only that as I've said before I don't have experience about JCD in other countries. But let's not forget that the Roman Catholic Church is just one offspring of JCD, Lutherans are another one, and so on. I guess not everyone there is a fundamentalist. And let's not forget the friars which most of the times are pretty cool too. Imdo.

Also trying to make people think is never wrong dude.  8)

To summarize Hominid Dude I think we're saying more or less the same thing only that we have a slightly different point of view. Probably Rev. Al and Rev. Ed have wrapped it all up in a great way, imdo.

And if I'm not wrong also the resurrection has been predated from Mithra, which probably has been predated from Horus. This means that everyone predates everyone or that there are certain concepts which resist the passing of time through the ages? Oh well.

Fabolous conversation dudes, also because it's so dudely and everyone is cool here. Far out.  :D

just went back to the first couple of pages and re-read the original concept of this thread; how to move dudeism forward.
does this thing we have here need formal recognition as so many other threads ask? i dont think so.
how can this thought and life concept move forward? well, what does dudeism and being a dude mean to its members. is it to get a laugh from friends? is it to fill a void that other religions cant fill? is it an excuse to be lazy buggers? for me, coming in from being a tbl fan, it represents a lifestyle concept i aspire to: taking it easy, having good times, good friends, living in the now and going with the flow. thats not to say you cant take a stand against things that piss you off, but (and no offence guys) the constant christian bashing is getting a bit tiring. and i dont like any modern form of deity worship.
i really enjoy reading the theological debates that go on here, some of which is new shit coming to light for me, which is helped by the background of many dudes here of different religions.
dam, lost my train of thought ...
nope its gone.
oh, its back. to move dudeism forward, then as Ed C's original review appears to indicate the need for form or hierachical structure. is the community not too large now for consentual motions as there are so many different opinions vying for authority? can dudeism ever become more than it is now without structure? imdo by the way

nope its gone.
oh, its back.

Oh Rev. milnie, that's fucking funny, I've almost split my belly.  :D

But you said interesting concepts and great train of thoughts. I like too this theological discussion as I've learnt some new things pretty interesting. As for your questions, well, I just don't know. Each one of us has his own opinion and for each one of us our opinion is correct; that's why imdo we have to reach some kind of common point. Which we will if we think about it long enough.

For me a good mixture is what they use in those irish monasteries like the head of the order, the abbot and the monks, much similar to buddhist monasteries I guess. Loose yet stable. And if some dudes don't find it comfortable they can nevertheless stay outside the organization. I know I'm not writing correctly but this is English and I'm a f****ng Italian, so please get the example and forget the words.  ;D

But above all we must have a clear answer for the outside world and ourselves to What is Dudeism and Who is a Dude. Something that can be applied to every background, culture and whathaveyou.

Given that we all know What would the Dude do then it shouldn't be so hard, three "precepts", three questions and three answers; but actually this is Olly's job, not mine. He's the Super Dude.  ;D

The only answer to the question "How do we explain Dudeism" is to tell them to watch TBL 10 times.  If they don't get it, they won't get us.  ;-)

Sorry if it seems I was pissin on the rug earlier. I was a bit crabit there.
Think there's a karma thing runnIng in tbl I need to get in tune with.

Quote from: milnie on December 02, 2011, 04:15:40 PM
Sorry if it seems I was pissin on the rug earlier. I was a bit crabit there.
Think there's a karma thing runnIng in tbl I need to get in tune with.

Nuthin' I noticed... take it easy dude!

Hominid, Rev. Ed C, Andrea Fa Fino, and Milnie, I'd like to take a moment to thank you for making my day by sharing what you've all posted in this thread!  In the unlikely event that we should ever meet face-to-face, the oat sodas and Caucasians are on me!

Since I have nothing of worth to add to the historical part of the discussion, I'll simply respond to a couple of comments I found to be particularly relevant to Dudeism.

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 02, 2011, 04:01:05 AMI get what you're saying there, Hominid, about you can't pick and choose when it comes to your religion, but I ain't any of those religions, so I can pick and choose what I like :)

A well-expressed sentiment if ever I heard one.  And an important distinction that attracts me to Dudeism:  "I can pick and choose what I like."  I have long believed that once a person reaches "the age of reason" (at whatever age that might occur; some people never seem to get there) they are responsible for the direction their lives take.  Regardless of the various influences that impact their lives, each person must decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong, what works and what doesn't, and accept responsibility for the consequences.  And the truly cool thing about Dudeism is that we're not trying to tell anyone "This is right, that is wrong,", we're simply saying "Decide for yourself" free from the nonsense, rituals, and restrictions of most religions.

Quote from: milnie on December 02, 2011, 12:00:25 PMhow can this thought and life concept move forward? well, what does dudeism and being a dude mean to its members. is it to get a laugh from friends? is it to fill a void that other religions cant fill? is it an excuse to be lazy buggers? for me, coming in from being a tbl fan, it represents a lifestyle concept i aspire to: taking it easy, having good times, good friends, living in the now and going with the flow.

Absolutely!  Enjoy and appreciate your life by being true to yourself and to others, minimize the bullshit as much as possible, and don't worry about the rat race; let the rats win!

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 03:14:06 PM
The only answer to the question "How do we explain Dudeism" is to tell them to watch TBL 10 times.  If they don't get it, they won't get us.  ;-)

Dude this is great! :D

And for all other dudes here, mark it 8.

Quote from: milnie on December 02, 2011, 12:00:25 PM
to move dudeism forward, then as Ed C's original review appears to indicate the need for form or hierachical structure. is the community not too large now for consentual motions as there are so many different opinions vying for authority? can dudeism ever become more than it is now without structure? imdo by the way

I seek not in structure, but in philosophy.

My main point is, we need to focus on Dudeism, not Lebowskiism.

Dudeism is a way of life for all and is best represented by the myriad philosophies we've all helped throw out there, and by great Dudes in history and the great dudely spiritual messages of our compeer faiths and thought-pools.  It is not best expressed through an americano-centric movie that speaks only to one type of person (of which I am not).

I love Coens movies, but as movies.  LA culture and heritage is not mine ;)

The most common sentiment amongst a lot of the more prominent Brits around here (such as myself, meekon5, Rev. Dog and Pirate) is:  "I am A Dude, not THE Dude".  And I stick by that.

Beyond Lebowskiism is Dudeism.  The former speaks to people who love that film and its limited scope, the latter can speak to all.

I don't want a structured church, and nor do I call Dudeism "Church of the Latterday Dude", because I don't consider us a church.  We're a loose collective of devout philosophical holyguys.  Men and women who stick to a vague ideal of how to live our lives and the way the world works.  We're nice, laidback, nonjudgmental, charitable, lighthearted, individualistic and... lots of other stuff besides :)  We're certainly not into deference, structure and formality.

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 06:07:32 AM
...BUT, after all is said and done, new shit has come to light: it turns out that the bible is just a regurgitation of earlier "sacred" texts that came out of ancient Egypt anyways; there is no historical Jesus; all the stories are just a repetition of ones written eons before, i.e. the virgin birth, John the Baptists, the 3 wise men, etc etc etc - all come from earlier writings - same characters, different names. Jesus is based on the Egyptian god named Horus. Look it up.

Yes the resurrection can be paralleled with the Orpheus (http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/GreekMyths/Orpheus/) tradition (Orpheus enters the under world , or dies, to retrieve his girlfriend, and is then re-born , or rises from the dead), the wine and eating flesh comes from Mithras (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html).

The very celebrations of the christians, xmas, but for the Gregorian Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar) adding four days to the year (or more correctly adjusting the year by four days) to correct Julius' mistake (year is 365.25 days long not 365 as in the Julian calender) would lie on the 21st (the winter solstice). "Easter" a poor substitution for Ostera (http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/ostarathespringequinox/p/Ostara_History.htm). Brigit or Brighid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid) becomes Saint Brigit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Brigid). This is a theme I can play for some time.

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 06:07:32 AM
http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/black-people-wrote-the-bible/

Because of  the obvious "white" washing of history it is often not realised that there are three periods to the Egyptian Pharaohs. Either from conquering, or being conquered, by outside forces. The first is the Nubian (http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/stsmith/research/nubia_history.html) (which in itself leads to the possibility that Cleopatra was black), the Greek (after Alexander the great invaded), and the Roman (after Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony).

So no it's not a surprise that some of the origins of the bible may have been written by Black (Nubian) people.

My own theory is that the jews acquired monotheism from Akhenaten (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/akhenaten_01.shtml), which then was perpetuated into christianity, which in turn perpetrated into islam.

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 06:07:32 AM
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Though I love the "Religious Tolerance" site. They are not renowned for their academic excellence. though they do try. It is widely accepted (as far as I know) that the bible is an amalgam of differing sources re-aligned by the jewish process of continual revision (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4170-censorship-of-hebrew-books) and correction over thousands of years. A common practice due to the degradation of hand copying manuscripts and long term handling of them.

Quote from: Hominid on December 02, 2011, 06:07:32 AM
It's all hogwash people...  

This is not a point of view I can agree with. Just because the bible and christianity is based in Pre-christian Paganism does not undermine it's essential message, just the idea that it is the direct and unadulterated word of a single all powerful god.

I find no contradiction being a Pagan (Animist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism), Discordian (http://www.discordian.com/), Bachanalian (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/livy39.asp)) with my Taoist/Dudeist/Zen philosophy. After all if all the world is illusion why not have fun with it?

Finally if you follow Richard Bach's point of view from Illusions (http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/2/3599/3599084_richard_bach__illusions__the_adventures_of_a_reluctant_messiah.pdf), religion is personal and where you find it.

Quote from: Richard Bach
If you will practice being fictional for a while, you will understand that fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and heartbeats.

Actually I don't use the term Church of the Latter-Day Dude just because it's exhausting writing down all those words.  But, you know, I'm some kind of fucking zealot. ;D  ;D  ;D

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 05, 2011, 04:01:11 AMI love Coens movies, but as movies.

I concur.  To be honest, I don't like every movie they've made, but I like more of them than I dislike.

I often wonder how the Coen brothers honestly feel about all the fuss made over TBL and what they really think of Dudeism.  I mean, they respond positively and diplomatically when being interviewed because they don't want to alienate any fans, but I can just as easily see them getting a big laugh over the whole thing.

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 05, 2011, 04:01:11 AMLA culture and heritage is not mine ;)

L.A. has heritage, to be sure, but culture?  I've lived here (in the Los Angeles area, that is) for 50 years, and I haven't found that to be the case.  ;)

I'm kidding, of course.  Except for the expense, I rather like living in southern California.  But I do get a chuckle when tourists come here expecting it all to be glamorous and "Hooray for Hollywood".

QuoteI often wonder how the Coen brothers honestly feel about all the fuss made over TBL and what they really think of Dudeism.  I mean, they respond positively and diplomatically when being interviewed because they don't want to alienate any fans, but I can just as easily see them getting a big laugh over the whole thing.

Agreed... I sometimes chuckle over how some people take Dudeism so bloody seriously... not to insult anyone, but that's, like my opinion man!

Quote from: Hominid on December 05, 2011, 04:02:51 PM

QuoteI often wonder how the Coen brothers honestly feel about all the fuss made over TBL and what they really think of Dudeism.  I mean, they respond positively and diplomatically when being interviewed because they don't want to alienate any fans, but I can just as easily see them getting a big laugh over the whole thing.

Agreed... I sometimes chuckle over how some people take Dudeism so bloody seriously... not to insult anyone, but that's, like my opinion man!

I have seen interviews with them where they are asked and they don't really comment just look a little perplexed.

Quote from: meekon5 on December 06, 2011, 05:36:09 AM

Quote from: Hominid on December 05, 2011, 04:02:51 PM

QuoteI often wonder how the Coen brothers honestly feel about all the fuss made over TBL and what they really think of Dudeism.  I mean, they respond positively and diplomatically when being interviewed because they don't want to alienate any fans, but I can just as easily see them getting a big laugh over the whole thing.

Agreed... I sometimes chuckle over how some people take Dudeism so bloody seriously... not to insult anyone, but that's, like my opinion man!

I have seen interviews with them where they are asked and they don't really comment just look a little perplexed.

Like most successful - and productive - people, they do their shit and move on. They don't dwell on past accomplishments, whether other people do or not.

Quote from: Hominid on December 06, 2011, 11:14:32 AM
Like most successful - and productive - people, they do their shit and move on. They don't dwell on past accomplishments, whether other people do or not.

I'm sure if the writers of the Bible were similarly interviewed they'd be as perplexed as the Coen brothers are about people making religions out of their writings.

;D

 :D

Far out meekon. I guess JCD would be perplexed and stupefied too.  And Duddha too. :D

This thread is why I finally registered here after being ordained since 09. After much reading I see this way of life headed in a good general direction as a group. I would like to see it removed a bit further from TBL but not separated as the movie did bind us all and allow us to unite loosely, freely and somewhat together in thought.

Some points about the reduction in mocking others with the latter day dude being removed would be nice as it really is not needed. It can make it look bad just like the followers of the FSM's parodies cause them to be a joke in circles. Dudeism when used as a form of taoism is far from a joke. I do like the pastafarians and am friends with more of them IRL then dudes I even dabbled in Pastafarianism myself.

I was raised in a somewhat religious family and do miss the community type feel around it but am happy to be removed away from the low boiling hate to others that are different that seeps from it. If there where to be dudeist lodges or facilities I image a moose lodge or VFW type atmosphere would be nice. Maybe some aquaponic gardening and other crafts could be produced and sold to cover rent keeping oat soda prices next to nothing. I don't think any sort of tithing or leaning on people for ridiculous donations should be expected however it being able to produce something to self sustain might be a good option.

Quote from: cookiemeat on December 17, 2011, 04:44:05 PM
This thread is why I finally registered here after being ordained since 09. After much reading I see this way of life headed in a good general direction as a group. I would like to see it removed a bit further from TBL but not separated as the movie did bind us all and allow us to unite loosely, freely and somewhat together in thought.

Some points about the reduction in mocking others with the latter day dude being removed would be nice as it really is not needed. It can make it look bad just like the followers of the FSM's parodies cause them to be a joke in circles. Dudeism when used as a form of taoism is far from a joke. I do like the pastafarians and am friends with more of them IRL then dudes I even dabbled in Pastafarianism myself.

I was raised in a somewhat religious family and do miss the community type feel around it but am happy to be removed away from the low boiling hate to others that are different that seeps from it. If there where to be dudeist lodges or facilities I image a moose lodge or VFW type atmosphere would be nice. Maybe some aquaponic gardening and other crafts could be produced and sold to cover rent keeping oat soda prices next to nothing. I don't think any sort of tithing or leaning on people for ridiculous donations should be expected however it being able to produce something to self sustain might be a good option.

Good words, dude, welcome to the party! Grab a rug and abide.

The acquaponic gardening is a great idea, you can grow many vegetables and you can go fishing too. Far out!

What I like of Dudeism is that it focuses more on similarities with other religions or philosophies and less on differences, which is one of the reasons why it's the coolest religion on the planet.  8)

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on December 17, 2011, 11:46:33 PM
What I like of Dudeism is that it focuses more on similarities with other religions or philosophies and less on differences, which is one of the reasons why it's the coolest religion on the planet.  8)

As usual, AF, I'm right with you on that! :D

Quote from: cookiemeat on December 17, 2011, 04:44:05 PM
This thread is why I finally registered here after being ordained since 09. After much reading I see this way of life headed in a good general direction as a group. I would like to see it removed a bit further from TBL but not separated as the movie did bind us all and allow us to unite loosely, freely and somewhat together in thought.

Some points about the reduction in mocking others with the latter day dude being removed would be nice as it really is not needed. It can make it look bad just like the followers of the FSM's parodies cause them to be a joke in circles. Dudeism when used as a form of taoism is far from a joke. I do like the pastafarians and am friends with more of them IRL then dudes I even dabbled in Pastafarianism myself.

I was raised in a somewhat religious family and do miss the community type feel around it but am happy to be removed away from the low boiling hate to others that are different that seeps from it. If there where to be dudeist lodges or facilities I image a moose lodge or VFW type atmosphere would be nice. Maybe some aquaponic gardening and other crafts could be produced and sold to cover rent keeping oat soda prices next to nothing. I don't think any sort of tithing or leaning on people for ridiculous donations should be expected however it being able to produce something to self sustain might be a good option.

Glad we've inspired you there, Cookie dude :)  Welcome aboard, I'm sure you can find the bar (it's not that well hidden!) :P

Like with all things around here, it's a slow move down a 10mph street in the middle of a lazy town.  The Dudeist community is very split in the ways they communicate.  Between the musings on the forum, the insightful articles on the Dudespaper and the generic bits that come through Facebook, we're not particually cohesive.

Maybe when The Rug becomes activated in the future we can try and link things all under one roof.  But for that to happen we'll have to have some sort of group of administrators, and at the moment we're a bit of a loose collection with most of the work being done by the Dudely Lama, who also has a real life ("A what???", I hear you ask) to balance.  But, y'know, slow and steady wins the race, and all that jazz :)

The Rug is already up and running dude.
http://therug.org/

Not much action there for some reason?

Quote from: cckeiser on December 18, 2011, 05:16:02 PM
The Rug is already up and running dude.
http://therug.org/

Not much action there for some reason?

Didn't even know it existed... I don't get the point of it, with dudeism.com already here and all...

yeah, but we're about to replace it with better software. we announced the beta version of the site a few months ago and it crashed in five minutes. should have a new one up soon.

mainly, we hope that it will help dudeists set up and maintain local (or virtual) parishes. tie people together, you know?

been having second thoughts about using "www.therug.org" - might use "www.dudeism.net" to keep it more closely linked to dudeism. thoughts anyone?

www.dudeism.net gets my vote.

If being local is the import, then why not use the word "local" in the URL... like "www.localdudeism.com" or "www. pullupalocalrug", or "www.localrugfordudes.com"... you get my drift.

www.dudenominations.org ?  ;D

Quote from: cckeiser on December 18, 2011, 08:52:48 PM
www.dudeism.net gets my vote.

I second that motion! :D

My fav......

burnaJ.org ?  ;D 

......... that is to say "Burn A J"

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 19, 2011, 04:05:11 AM
My fav......

burnaJ.org ?  ;D 

......... that is to say "Burn A J"

As a non-partaker, and seeing as my special lady was actually put off Dudeism a little by the "Burn A J Day" campaign, I'm not sure that's really an inclusive sort of message.

Surely, we're missing a trick with:  Abide.somethingorother :)

It's our core message, inclusive, inoffensive, non-insiteful or preachy.... If we're not going with Dudeism, surely, Abide is the way 8)

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 19, 2011, 04:53:44 AM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 19, 2011, 04:05:11 AM
My fav......

burnaJ.org ?  ;D  

......... that is to say "Burn A J"

As a non-partaker, and seeing as my special lady was actually put off Dudeism a little by the "Burn A J Day" campaign, I'm not sure that's really an inclusive sort of message.

Surely, we're missing a trick with:  Abide.somethingorother :)

It's our core message, inclusive, inoffensive, non-insiteful or preachy.... If we're not going with Dudeism, surely, Abide is the way 8)

I was touching on the "lighter side" of Dudeism, but if we are to touch on the the more series side, I would suggest "dudeistthinking.org" or perhaps "considerdudeism.org" ".Org" because of the concept of a loosely nitted organization.

www.dudehere.org
www.dudely.org
www.dudes.org
www.beachcommunity.org
www.publicresidence.org

etc, etc.  :D

fuckinga.net ;D

www.NewShitHasComeToLight.net    ;D

www.WhatDayIsIt.org
www.LikeAChildHalfWayThroughTheFilm.com ?

compeers.org

Magic Mormon Underwear ;D

Get the magic here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnVOK42o4E0&feature=player_embedded#!

(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/11/17/e5256909-a224-47df-9a02-9d8abde54bde.jpg)

www.JustTakeItEasyMan.org

www.CalmerThanYouAre.net

www.ItsDownThereSomewhereLetMeTakeAnotherLook.org

or
www.HeyThatsMyRobe.org

Looking for deeper knowledge? ......

itsdowntheresomewhere.org

This thread is becoming f***ng funny, probably FD is losing his train of thoughts with so many good ideas flowing around. Far out.  :D  :D  :D

Maybe, just maybe, naming our websites after Lebowski puns is more moving Dudeism backwards, rather than forwards... :P

*waits for the hail of rotten fruit*

I'm very excited to see what the new software and designs will do for the functionality of a dedicated community site.  Whilst the forum is simplistically functional, something where we can post specific items without them getting lost at the front of a thread, or having a directory of "local" dudeists, and dudely establishments would be great, which I think are all things that are coming into play.

Despite having several thousand members of the forum... how many of us are actually putting anything into the discussions?  It's looking like a very insular group we have going here.  It's like an inbreeding for thoughts ;D  We need some new philosophical/opinionated DNA.

Opening Dudeism up wider is the name of the game, and the main inspiration for me starting this thread.  Whilst the main website has some interesting things on it, it's also got some stuff which is perhaps part of the old, Lebowskiist thing.  Also, it has links to this Forum and DP, but I'm not sure what people get out of the main site to move them onwards.  Afterall, the main site is a little stagnant and out of date.  Most of the advertising for the DP comes from Facebook *shudder*.

A dedicated Dudeist network, combining the info of the main site, the discussion groups of this forum and the article of the DP, along with all the new functionality already discussed... I'm very much looking forward to it :D

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 20, 2011, 03:55:03 AM
Maybe, just maybe, naming our websites after Lebowski puns is more moving Dudeism backwards, rather than forwards... :P

*waits for the hail of rotten fruit*

In our case, you would get the ringer tossed at you if anything. ;D

But, I digress; A long time ago I myself dabbled in thoughts of how to develop and advance the ideas of Dudeism, and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org." I am yet to get off my ass and stop slacking on the project. Not sure if I ever will.

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 20, 2011, 05:26:49 AM
But, I digress; A long time ago I myself dabbled in thoughts of how to develop and advance the ideas of Dudeism, and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org." I am yet to get off my ass and stop slacking on the project. Not sure if I ever will.

The problem is... if you ever do get off your arse, you'll be kicked out of the order :P

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 20, 2011, 05:47:34 AM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 20, 2011, 05:26:49 AM
But, I digress; A long time ago I myself dabbled in thoughts of how to develop and advance the ideas of Dudeism, and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org." I am yet to get off my ass and stop slacking on the project. Not sure if I ever will.

The problem is... if you ever do get off your arse, you'll be kicked out of the order :P

Now that brings up an interesting concept, Rev; "orders within, and of, Dudeism." "The Order of Walter," "The Order Donny," "The Order of The Jesus," "The Order of Maude," "The Order of Smokey," etc., hmmmm, might be interesting.  ;D

(http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/BlueKnights06/WALTERSOBCHAK.png)

I'm probably more from the Order of the Serious Man, myself ;)

surley the introduction of "orders" can only lead to further fragmentation of an already incoherent concept that is dudeism. schisms will abound and the end will be nigh!!!

(yes i was drinking at lunchtime ;) )

Quote from: milnie on December 20, 2011, 10:22:30 AM
surley the introduction of "orders" can only lead to further fragmentation of an already incoherent concept that is dudeism. schisms will abound and the end will be nigh!!!

Yeah, the who Dudeism/Abidism was at one time presented as a schism.  I think the answer is for non-lebowskiists to accept Lebowski, and for Lebowskiists to accept there's more than Lebowski.  Wow, I think I just solved the Jerusalem crisis! ;)

Any fractioning or factioning is a road to ruin for a group that's bound in their looseness :P  About orders we do indeed jest, but it has been a concern in the past.  Luckily, Pin Dudeists are still amongst us, and not hiding in their own alley.  Same alley, different lane :)

Quote from: milnie on December 20, 2011, 10:22:30 AM
(yes i was drinking at lunchtime ;) )

Lucky bastard! ;D

Wait! Wait! I want to be part of The Holy Order of Ladies Dressed in Viking Suits and if I'm going to be the only male there, well, that's cool.
;D  ;D  ;D

Or how about www.ElDuderino.org? ;D

More on El Duderino!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=el%20duderino

Quote from: milnie on December 20, 2011, 10:22:30 AM
surley the introduction of "orders" can only lead to further fragmentation of an already incoherent concept that is dudeism. schisms will abound and the end will be nigh!!!

(yes i was drinking at lunchtime ;) )

Or various orders could concentrate on expanding out various forms of Dudeism. Of course, when such "sub-organizations" are created, there is the ever present threat of inter-order rivalry and bickering. Very undude.

On a lighter note; drinking at lunch time has been shown to contribute to higher forms of dude-like slacking. This is a good thing.

@Andrea Da Fino... "The Holy Order of Ladies Dressed in Viking Suits" ...fucking eh!

@cckeiser...  www.ElDuderino.org ...yeah, that's a good one.

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 20, 2011, 09:58:30 AM
I'm probably more from the Order of the Serious Man, myself ;)

On a serious note, I was thinking if the Tenets of Dudeism could be summarized in something called "The 10 Dudeaments" (inspired by The 10 Commandants). Problem is, in the case of the 10 Commandments, Moses dude was reported to have gotten them directly from "Yahweh" with little or no debate called for. It was a sort of "hey Moses, take these tablets with my new 10 laws thingie and go down off this a here mountain and kick those Hebrews in the ass for worshiping cow gods, they're really pissing me off!"

In the case of a bunch of debating dudes like us, it might take years to arrive at even 3 or 4, let alone 10! Of course, the process of doing so (and I think there is much value in the process) always yields plenty of good thinking which alone moves Dudeist thinking forward.

Have to admit, he does look dude-like..................

(http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-ten-commandments-1956-movie-03.jpg)

"I'm a dude, so that's what you call me"

Fu***ng A!   ;D

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 21, 2011, 12:11:08 AM
On a serious note, I was thinking if the Tenets of Dudeism could be summarized in something called "The 10 Dudeaments" (inspired by The 10 Commandants).

Saying "we need to come up with 10 commandments", is kind of arse-about-face, isn't it? :)  Surly we need to work out what's central to the ideas of Dudeism, free from extraneous extras, and then count them afterwards.  Otherwise you're just forcing in bullshit to make up the numbers :P

I think when it came down to the Tenets discussion http://dudeism.com/smf/index.php?topic=2622.0 sometimes it was said that certain suggestions were just copies of others.  Taking it easy and not getting uptight, for example, are essentially the same thing that could be said in an even simpler way.

I think if we're going down the route of talking about this we should return to the start of that discussion and take a look at the work we already did.  There's some valid stuff in there, we just need to sift it out and say "No matter whatelse, we can all agree Dudeism is at it's core... X, Y and Z.  Anything else is a bonus or an extraneous extra, for better or worse".

There must be a simple answer.  To be honest, we've probably been overthinking this for a while, but, hey, it's part of the fun ;D

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on December 21, 2011, 03:56:47 AM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 21, 2011, 12:11:08 AM
On a serious note, I was thinking if the Tenets of Dudeism could be summarized in something called "The 10 Dudeaments" (inspired by The 10 Commandants).

Saying "we need to come up with 10 commandments", is kind of arse-about-face, isn't it? :)  Surly we need to work out what's central to the ideas of Dudeism, free from extraneous extras, and then count them afterwards.  Otherwise you're just forcing in bullshit to make up the numbers :P

This is true; let us not act as FPRs (Fucking Park Rangers) and wax rigid confined by the number "10." I think that it would only be a starting point, a beginning concept to work from. On a historic note; we have 111 (Ref. Lord of the Rings; Bilbo at the age of "eleventy one") and in recent pop culture; Spinal Tap, whose amps thew off the dusty confines of "10" and insisted that their guitar amp volumes embrace "11." The point here is "out-of-the-box" innovation (of sorts, and Zen style humor).........

;D These go to eleven - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

(http://retrothing.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452989a69e2015436ccb5cd970c-800wi)

a post on the kerabotsmas thread has given me an idea (hopefully not treading on others toes here?)

how about different garb for dudes who follow certain traits of dudeism:
wet suits for the above,
khaki and bandanas for the walterites
fractal prints for the abideists
bowling shirts and or dressing gowns for the lebowskiists
white overalls for the worshipers of the special lady (viking costume for the dudes of the female persuasion or is that too much titilation?)

god the list goes on ... any one else?

Quote from: milnie on December 21, 2011, 08:31:36 AM
a post on the kerabotsmas thread has given me an idea (hopefully not treading on others toes here?)

how about different garb for dudes who follow certain traits of dudeism:
wet suits for the above,
khaki and bandanas for the walterites
fractal prints for the abideists
bowling shirts and or dressing gowns for the lebowskiists
white overalls for the worshipers of the special lady (viking costume for the dudes of the female persuasion or is that too much titilation?)

god the list goes on ... any one else?

The issue would be, of course, that this is about moving Dudeism beyond the Lebowskiian parody, into the wider philosophy it's supposed to be that includes, but is not based on, TBL.  It's a good joke, but it's not exactly progress :P

Also, uniforms... erg :)  It's an affront to freethinking individuals, I tells ya! ;D

Stay flexibly cool

Respect everything

Don't be a sap

Abide

8)

just a typical engineer's mind trying to make order from chaos  :D

one of the problems i see is the unerring subconscious desire of humans for order, which is why ideas and religions tend to form into such rigid institutions.
to quote from Dogma: "its easy to change an idea". actually, if you try discussing transient wave physics with a physicist of the classic teachings, you may as well bang  your head against a wall.

I got two.
Take er easy
Don't be a dick.

Can't think of any others worthy of Dudeism.

Another one.....

Respect your neighbor's rug. Never pee upon it.

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 21, 2011, 07:26:32 PM
Another one.....

Respect your neighbor's rug. Never pee upon it.

That would pretty much be the same as being a dick! ;D
But that is just like my opinion dude! 8)

K.I.S.S.
8)

Quote from: cckeiser on December 21, 2011, 08:15:54 PM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 21, 2011, 07:26:32 PM
Another one.....

Respect your neighbor's rug. Never pee upon it.

That would pretty much be the same as being a dick! ;D
But that is just like my opinion dude! 8)

K.I.S.S.
8)

I was thinking more down the lines of a greater significance and a greater meaning. Given that the dude's rug "really tied his room together," it is a symbol of his life as a whole. The rug, or it's meaning, really tied the dude's life together. Perhaps one of the reasons he went on a quest to replace it with a new and worthy rug. Ergo; don't fuck with another dude's life, that is to say "Respect your neighbor's rug. Never pee upon it."

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 20, 2011, 05:26:49 AM
...and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org."...

That for the first time in ages made me laugh out loud.

"wikidudia.org."

Good one DB.

Quote from: meekon5 on December 22, 2011, 04:00:25 PM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on December 20, 2011, 05:26:49 AM
...and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org."...

That for the first time in ages made me laugh out loud.

"wikidudia.org."

Good one DB.

;D ;D

Hey I'm new and working really hard at slacking ... but I'm committed man, I'm committed. Reading the entire sixteen pages of this thread seems so un-dudely, i.e. way too much work ... but I did put time in on the beginning pages and the last few ... and I think I get it ... "gotta do something to make dudeism more real" - i.e.: acceptable in the large non-dude world.

Okay ... here's my quick thoughts:

A) There are books that define dudeism ... like the Dude De Ching and Abide (both really heavy duty IMO).

The Dude De Ching has a few millennia under it's belt to lay claim to, and that's gotta count for something.

B) Abiding is the central theme ... the main commandment if you like, or the the Prime Directive.

FWIW being a long-standing taoist abiding is what it's all about ... and what drew me in to the fold of Dudeism in the first place ... it just makes so much sense ... just common sense.

C) There's a deep history in the East to the dudieist way ... Shibumi is one way of expressing that ideal.

In dudeist thinking Shibumi, an indescribable Eastern concept, reaches an equivalent in the idea of Abide ... the circle folds, Yin become Yang.

D) Beyond the basis for Dudeism in Taoism let's remember the Dude takes action too ... he's constantly doing what he believes is right and he must, beginning with confronting the Big Lebowski ... and never giving up, letting each step lead to the next man ... very cool, very cool.

This is essentially the American ideal of Pragmatist philosophy, what is true is what is real ... and taking the next step, just the next step ... like the Harvey Keitel "Johnny Walker" commercials ... "Just Keep Walking"

So there seems to me to be a real basis beyond TBL for the tenants of Dudeism. To go forward we can begin by going backwards ...

WabiSabi, you might be new but you're surely not exactly a lighweight. I mean you talk pretty well and say wise stuff. Now let me take a look to see what this Shibumi thing is. Welcome to the bar Dude.  8)

Hey Wabisabi dude - welcome to our little beach party...

WabiSabi, welcome and thanks for your wise words :)

What we need is more "fresh blood" like yourself to give insightful introspection and mix up our philosophical genepool.

Kudos, and great name, btw :D  I've often thought that Wabi Sabi is something we can look upon as Dudeists.  Saw a great little documentary on it the other year by Louis Theroux's brother, Marcel.  If I can get my thoughts together, I think there's a Dudepaper article in it somewhere! ;D

That's just like your opinion dude. I still say stick with the K.I.S.S. principle...the simpler the better! 8)
Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.
My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.
Don't "christianize" dudeism....duderize the christians!
K.I.S.S.  8)

Quote from: cckeiser on January 08, 2012, 07:31:14 PM
That's just like your opinion dude. I still say stick with the K.I.S.S. principle...the simpler the better! 8)
Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.
My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.
Don't "christianize" dudeism....duderize the christians!
K.I.S.S.  8)

Thanks for writing that CCK, you've help remind me of my core beliefs about all this. I agree that there may indeed be some that want to over-think and over-complicate the whole thing; that they take Dudeism (and themselves) too seriously. Which is a trait of the religious; those who like the belief more than what the belief teaches. I think it's good that this is the 'slowest growing religion in the world", which to me says that there's little to no proselytizing. So far, I've  observed that any new blood contributing to the forums come here after watching TBL one or more times, then spend a bit of time lurking in the forums, then introduce themselves like wasabi dude.  Which is the way Dudeism should propagate - by cultural osmosis. Not clever debate or convincing conversation, because words are just words. Any real grass roots movement evolves and grows because of the desire and drive of the people who join. Otherwise, it's all fluff.

And why do we need labels anyways? They're often no more than convenient clich?'s for critics to judge and mock. For me, I much prefer to make someone think about what they're thinking by something I've done by example as opposed to something clever I've said. Tickling people's ears, and providing material for philosophical masturbation used to stroke my ego, but no longer. To me, this cute "religion" we call Dudeism provides fellowship with like-minded slackers who yearn to take it easy, nothing more. Like cck says, K.I.S.S. Pragmatism rocks! Nuthin' wrong with discussion; it's great. To me, it should always facilitate and clarify the main message: abide.

 

Quote from: cckeiser on January 08, 2012, 07:31:14 PM
Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.

My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.

Once again, I think the point is perhaps missed a little.  There's no message of change apart from in the organic sense.  Stagnation is the death of anything that lives.  Dudeism isn't about rocks, it's about slow-growing organisms.  If you think discussion about where we're going is wrong, try taking it up with The Archdudeship whose column for the DP is usually about where we are and where we're going.

Secondly, I think you mistake, and a little insultingly :P the issue of the UK Dudes that frequent this forum and other official Dudely places.  TBL doesn't speak to us!  This isn't about making Dudeism all-inclusive and "acceptable to the square community", I don't know where this idea you guys have comes from?  We're not asking to build this into a major religious institution, and I'm getting tired of saying it over and over, to have the same thing thrown back in my direction.  We just want something that speaks more to us, and that's often something that's less Lebowski and more Dudeism.

So frequently Dudeism is represented without TBL, so why it always seems to be forced back into being Lebowski-centric is beyond me.  This whole discussion is supposed to be about the multitude of facets that Dudeism is supposed to exemplify, not just pointlessly quoting a movie.  Last time I quoted a joke from the movie I got a private tell asking me why I was being "nasty"... I mean, I try and fit in with general Lebowskiism, but I'm not always allowed :P

A quote from myself, Meekon, Rev Dog and Pirate on many separate occasions:  "I'm A Dude, not THE Dude"  Why do we all say/think this?  Because, I'll say again, TBL doesn't speak to us.  It's not our "culture and heritage" to use another Coenism.  We want to abide, but sometimes the art of KISS seems to be used to confine us.  We try and abide in our way and we're told it's not a valid way of abiding.  WTF? ;D  Hath not a dude eyes?  Hath not a dude ears?  If you prick us, do we not get bummed? ;)

This thread, for the umpteenth time, is not about organising ourselves, it's about growing to within the ideals of Dudeism, not perverting it.  I can't, can't stress this enough, and so many, many, many times :)

Quote from: cckeiser on January 08, 2012, 07:31:14 PM
Don't "christianize" dudeism....duderize the christians!

Ok, well, you have your Christian hang-ups, we all know, but we don't even consider Christianity. This is the UK.  We killed our Christianity decades ago.  To keep implying that we're a bunch of Christians trying to ruin Dudeism is perhaps one of the most unfair accusations that we keep getting.  You've thrown it at me personally more times than I care to count, even back to the beginning of this discussion when I said in no uncertain terms, this is not about Christianity, it never was and never will be, why do you keep mentioning it?? :P

CC man, I have deep respect for you, as a person, a dude and a wiseman, but you gotta let this go, and you've gotta please, please please... stop calling me Christian! ;D  I'm an agnostic Dudeist living with an atheist Buddhist.  Most of us Brit-dudes are Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans and Buddhists, with knowledge of many faiths and not a single lick of Christian bias... All the Christianity is coming from your side of the pond, my friend.  Take the burning torches back across the water if you want to wave them anywhere, I say :)  We already have a Witchsmeller over this side, his name's Pope Meekon ;)

Quote from: Hominid on January 08, 2012, 11:06:27 PM
Thanks for writing that CCK, you've help remind me of my core beliefs about all this. I agree that there may indeed be some that want to over-think and over-complicate the whole thing; that they take Dudeism (and themselves) too seriously. Which is a trait of the religious; those who like the belief more than what the belief teaches. I think it's good that this is the 'slowest growing religion in the world", which to me says that there's little to no proselytizing.

Hominid, man, much like CC, I respect you, but sometimes I worry about the things you say.  Many, many times you've pointed the finger of seriousness towards me.  Err... I don't see it myself.  If anything, my special lady complains I'm not serious enough :P  ... which sometimes gets me in serious trouble ;)

If this forum isn't a place where we can toss the philosophical pigskin around, what is it?  We have a plethora of different boards for different subjects.  And, several times I've suggested to people that if they don't want to get involved in these discussions and musings they don't have to :)  I don't partake in discussions that doesn't interest me, so I expect that is my or any other "brit"'s lighthearted musings are not to the taste of others they'll ignore them.  If you want to get involved and discuss, please do, but please don't complain that we're too serious.  You don't get the joke, swap channels and find a sitcom more to your liking 8)

Sometimes I worry I oversmily... sometimes I worry I undersmily because they all get ignored.  Is there one for a friendly ogre? ;D

Not looking to ruffle feathers here... just speaking my corner, because once again, I feel a little boxed into it ;)

Well, it is no news that USA and Europe are different in many respects and so this applies to religion too. It might be that we in Europe have been forced by the Catholic Church to believe that a religion should go a bit deeper than just looking at a movie and that having a bunch of simple tenets could be cool. Well, who knows, we don't have preachers on tv and we don't have the Bible Belt so we'll probably never know or understand these kind of cultural diversities.

The problem is that imdo if we go on just sticking to the movie we'll remain a kind of a bunch of amateurs in the eyes of others. We are not even able to explain what Dudeism is. And I think that saying Abide and Fuck let's go bowling isn't enough. It might be that in Europe we're complicated but that's how it goes. I don't want Dudeism to be a wake and bake club.

If in USA Dudeism is Lebowskiism that's fine and cool but in Europe we probably need something more. Let's imagine what dudes from the East would need.

If we think Dudeism is a cool religion and not a joke or just a way to justify stoned-living I think we have to find a way to show others wtf we're talking about. This doesn't mean to evangelize people but just to have a clear message; and saying Abide is not enough. Probably it all goes down to the fact that some of us see Dudeism as a real religion with a message which can make the world a better place and some do not. Which is anyway cool because Dudeism embraces everything that is dude, but what does this mean?

I know some of you will hate me for this but there are two religions who have spread because they have a clear yet simple message: one is Christianity and the other is Jedism. JCD had one clear message and that was it. Jedism  came out of a movie too yet it has more followers of Dudeism because of its clear message, and coolness. Also both of them are not usually identified with stoned-living which in many cultures is still been seen as such a not so good way of living.

It might be that we too have a simple message but it's not clear at all, at least for European standards. And if we don't change something we'll remain like a bunch of amateurs in the religious field and the world will remain as it is now, an uptight world.

I love Dudeism and I think dudes are the coolest persons on Earth but we must go over the Big Lebowski and get to that clear and simple message. Ok, it might be that I'm flawed because for me the ideal dude is not the Dude but a drunken Po, or a Shaolin Monk who masters the art of Drunken Monkey Kung Fu.


Anyway it might be that Dudeism is seen differently on different sides of the ocean but we should definitely go over this and especially over fighting with other religions, and this is something which surely applies to me too. But if this is not at all possible well, it means that Dudeism will be one thing for USA dudes and another one for European dudes. At the end our bowling ball is made up of two colors right? The Yin and Yang thing. Let's just hope that if it will happens that Dudeism arrives for real in the East they don't want to put another color. ;)

Everything is written in my dudely opinion dudes, no harm intended.  8)

AF, you always have been, and always will be, one of my closest compeers :D

Although remaining "a kind of a bunch of amateurs in the eyes of others" doesn't really bother me.  I just want Dudeism to speak for me.  Either people are with me, or they're not.  As long as they're not actively against me, it's all good :)  And if they are, fuck'em :P

Dudeism should not be something we all have to fall in line with, Dudeism should fall in line with us.  That's my message, and I'm sticking with it.  If I HAVE to be a Lebowskiist, I might as well go to a pre-established religion.  Dudeism is personal, we all abide in our own way.  My main point, always, is that Dudeism should speak to everyone with this core value, and that Lebowski can be a part of it, for those who feel it, but it should not be at the core.

The core SHOULD be kept simple.  Simple and universal.  TBL should be left a satellite, like Buddhists and Taoism and JCD and all the other things we want to throw into it.  That was the idea I wanted to work on.  How to we reach a core, like the tennets of Dudeism/Abideism that is purely simple and not pushed in one direction or the other.

If we have a simple core that defines a dude, all else is gravy.  Be you a Lebowskiists or whatever.  If it's decided that Lebowski IS the core of Dudeism, then I think this whole thing says little of any merit outside of Lebowskifest... in which case, why is this forum even here, why not just move all the discussions to a Lebowski site? :/

That may, of course, just be my opinion 8)

The same for me dude, you know, like Irish Monks.  ;)

And I agree with all the rest you've said, actually the satellite thing imdo expresses perfectly our point of view.

Mark it 8.  8)

Quote from: cckeiser on January 08, 2012, 07:31:14 PM
Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.

My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.

I suppose I am now going to look like another European Dude jumping up and down at this. ;D

The major reason I was initially attracted to Dudeism was it's connection to Taoism, not the TBL.

Also a lot of the far more "serious" spiritual Dudes don't post to the forum any more (and a lot of them were US members), it's a pure co-incidence that the heavier more "serious" of us that are left happen to be UK, or European residence.

As for

Quote from: WabiSabi on January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 AM
A) There are books that define dudeism ... like the Dude De Ching and Abide (both really heavy duty IMO).

I personally would avoid saying these are definitive.

The old zen "finger and the moon (http://www.awakeblogger.com/2008/11/the-meaning-of-the-finger-pointing-to-the-moon/)" problem applies here.

Please don't confuse what is in essence pointing towards what Dudeism is with what Dudeism actually is.

Quote from: WabiSabi on January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 AM
The Dude De Ching has a few millennia under it's belt to lay claim to, and that's gotta count for something.

The Tao Te Ching has millenia under it's belt, the Dude De Ching is only a few years old, and again is not definitive just instructional.

Quote from: WabiSabi on January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 AM
B) Abiding is the central theme ... the main commandment if you like, or the the Prime Directive.

Here again "commandment" and "directive" don't sit well with me as Dudeist concepts. suggestion and proposition.

I am a Dudeist because I abide, I did not abide to become a Dudeist, I abide because I abide.

I'm very interested in your next bit (BTW welcome to our little beach comunity)

Quote from: WabiSabi on January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 AM
FWIW being a long-standing taoist abiding is what it's all about ... and what drew me in to the fold of Dudeism in the first place ... it just makes so much sense ... just common sense.

C) There's a deep history in the East to the dudieist way ... Shibumi is one way of expressing that ideal.

In dudeist thinking Shibumi, an indescribable Eastern concept, reaches an equivalent in the idea of Abide ... the circle folds, Yin become Yang.

But then you spoil it  a bit. ;D

Quote from: WabiSabi on January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 AM
D) Beyond the basis for Dudeism in Taoism let's remember the Dude takes action too ... he's constantly doing what he believes is right and he must, beginning with confronting the Big Lebowski ... and never giving up, letting each step lead to the next man ... very cool, very cool.

This is essentially the American ideal of Pragmatist philosophy, what is true is what is real ... and taking the next step, just the next step ... like the Harvey Keitel "Johnny Walker" commercials ... "Just Keep Walking"

The reason I don't agree with this bit is more estoric, I can't agree with the statement

"what is true is what is real"

Believing that each person has their own reality, based on Buddhist/Taoist ideas and Michel Foucault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault) (Madness and Society, Madness and Civilization).

What is real may not (and usually is not) exactly the same for everyone, our consensus does not extrapolate to particulars when looking at reality.

I personally see no problem with my holding Dudeist, Taoist, and Pagan points of view.

Quote from: WabiSabi on January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 AM
So there seems to me to be a real basis beyond TBL for the tenants of Dudeism. To go forward we can begin by going backwards ...

I still have to say I am against trying to pin down what Dudeism is and is not beyond the general vagaries that exist at present.

I'm also an Erisian so stand against organisation and structure where ever possible.

There was no "plan" for the tree to grow the way it did, it just did.

The Human condition is so frightening that we as individuals apply rules where there are none, in an attempt to "see" order and feel more comfortable with our lives.

All IMDO of course, and as I said half way up the spiel, Welcome WabiSabi any rug in the place, bars over there.

Perhaps your first post was to a rather hot topic ;D

Sorry Rev Ed C, I did not mean "christian" as in the Christian Religion, but in a christian manner with Popes and Bishops and Dogma and all the other rules and sacraments and other shit that come along with christianizing a philosophy or belief.
I was Not accusing you of being a Christian...god forbid! ;D, but of thinking in a "christianizing" way.
From your last post/reply I can see I was mistaken and actually agree with you here:

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on January 09, 2012, 05:25:36 AM
AF, you always have been, and always will be, one of my closest compeers :D

Although remaining "a kind of a bunch of amateurs in the eyes of others" doesn't really bother me.  I just want Dudeism to speak for me.  Either people are with me, or they're not.  As long as they're not actively against me, it's all good :)  And if they are, fuck'em :P

Dudeism should not be something we all have to fall in line with, Dudeism should fall in line with us.  That's my message, and I'm sticking with it.  If I HAVE to be a Lebowskiist, I might as well go to a pre-established religion.  Dudeism is personal, we all abide in our own way.  My main point, always, is that Dudeism should speak to everyone with this core value, and that Lebowski can be a part of it, for those who feel it, but it should not be at the core.

The core SHOULD be kept simple.  Simple and universal.  TBL should be left a satellite, like Buddhists and Taoism and JCD and all the other things we want to throw into it.  That was the idea I wanted to work on.  How to we reach a core, like the tennets of Dudeism/Abideism that is purely simple and not pushed in one direction or the other.

If we have a simple core that defines a dude, all else is gravy.  Be you a Lebowskiists or whatever.  If it's decided that Lebowski IS the core of Dudeism, then I think this whole thing says little of any merit outside of Lebowskifest... in which case, why is this forum even here, why not just move all the discussions to a Lebowski site? :/

That may, of course, just be my opinion 8)

I too do prefer the Tao to the Lebowski, but I have no desire to separate them. I am just against a christianize type of Dogma with all the shit that that would require.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. 8)

And as a note to the new dudes here, yeah it says I am an administrator here, but I have no special authority more than any other dude here...I am just a janitor. The Admin power was only to allow me to clean up the spam and do board maintenance when this old software goes funky on us.
Everything I write is just like my opinion man. 8)

Quote from: cckeiser on January 09, 2012, 12:55:29 PM
Sorry Rev Ed C, I did not mean "christian" as in the Christian Religion, but in a christian manner with Popes and Bishops and Dogma and all the other rules and sacraments and other shit that come along with christianizing a philosophy or belief.
I was Not accusing you of being a Christian...god forbid! ;D, but of thinking in a "christianizing" way.

No worries man.  I see the word Christian and I guess there's a kind of haze falls over my vision as well ;)

One day, we'll all sit around a real table and talk things out with real words and not confuse the hell out of each other with pixels :)

I think when I say movement and such it does conjour up an image of enforced change.  I just think we should think about these things.  Dudeism is key, anything else is a bonus, be it Lebowski, Taoism, Buddhism or any of that crap I put into my articles.  We don't want laws, commandments or heirachy, just an ideal that acts like a neutron.

I've not problem with Lebowski being an electron in our atom, along with everything from ancient Greek philosophy to Bill Hicks fuzzing around in there, as long as it's not the neutron itself! ;D

Quote from: Rev. Ed C on January 09, 2012, 04:20:23 AM

Quote from: Hominid on January 08, 2012, 11:06:27 PM
Thanks for writing that CCK, you've help remind me of my core beliefs about all this. I agree that there may indeed be some that want to over-think and over-complicate the whole thing; that they take Dudeism (and themselves) too seriously. Which is a trait of the religious; those who like the belief more than what the belief teaches. I think it's good that this is the 'slowest growing religion in the world", which to me says that there's little to no proselytizing.

Hominid, man, much like CC, I respect you, but sometimes I worry about the things you say.  Many, many times you've pointed the finger of seriousness towards me.  Err... I don't see it myself.  If anything, my special lady complains I'm not serious enough :P  ... which sometimes gets me in serious trouble ;)

If this forum isn't a place where we can toss the philosophical pigskin around, what is it?  We have a plethora of different boards for different subjects.  And, several times I've suggested to people that if they don't want to get involved in these discussions and musings they don't have to :)  I don't partake in discussions that doesn't interest me, so I expect that is my or any other "brit"'s lighthearted musings are not to the taste of others they'll ignore them.  If you want to get involved and discuss, please do, but please don't complain that we're too serious.  You don't get the joke, swap channels and find a sitcom more to your liking 8)

Sometimes I worry I oversmily... sometimes I worry I undersmily because they all get ignored.  Is there one for a friendly ogre? ;D

Not looking to ruffle feathers here... just speaking my corner, because once again, I feel a little boxed into it ;)

What I type is, like, my opinion! ;) If you feel "got at", I can't really help you taking anything personally... I've not mentioned names... ever.  This forum allows varied opinions... I shared mine. If I don't punctuate my postings with enough smilies and "IMDO"'s, then you have my full permission to inject them at will.

:D Oh :D please :D tell :D me :D we're :D not :D going :D to :D have :D to :D do :D this :D again :D

Quote from: meekon5 on January 09, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
:D Oh :D please :D tell :D me :D we're :D not :D going :D to :D have :D to :D do :D this :D again :D

You make me laugh.

Well ;D Of Course ;D we are going ;D to do it ;D all Over ;D again!
You got ;D something ;D better ;D to do? ??? ;D 8)

Ok, on a more serious note...would Dudeist I.D. cards help move us forward? 8)

Quote from: cckeiser on January 09, 2012, 10:01:09 PM
Ok, on a more serious note...would Dudeist I.D. cards help move us forward? 8)

Is it defined what we're moving TOWARDS? If not, then we're okay where we are...

Or not.

Well actually Popes and Bishops and Dogmas are a feature of Catholicism and other offsprings of Christianity and not of JCD religion. I see what you mean cck but you know I like splitting hairs. See it like the satellite thing from Rev. Ed, at least that's as I see it.  8)

As for the ID cards I find them cool, and useful if someone has to show proofs of ordination without having to go around with the certificate. Imdo.  ;D

Quote from: cckeiser on January 09, 2012, 10:01:09 PM
Ok, on a more serious note...would Dudeist I.D. cards help move us forward? 8)

Personally, I think my dude-like nature is my ID.

What I would like is my Dudespaper Press Pass.  I can get into political party conferences and review the bar ;D

I second the Dudespaper Press Pass too, if that's the correct nomenclature.  ;D

Would an ID card get me discounts on bowling, oat sodas, smoke, vaginal artwork, rugs, the rent, white russians, caucasians, theater, jelly saddles, beepers, in-and-out-bugers (those are good burgers), speed of light tours (bunch of assholes), ralphs, robes? ;D I'm thinking 15% (http://dudeism.com/smf/Themes/classic/images/post/thumbup.gif)

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on January 10, 2012, 06:14:19 AM
Would an ID card get me discounts on bowling, oat sodas, smoke, vaginal artwork, rugs, the rent, white russians, caucasians, theater, jelly saddles, beepers, in-and-out-bugers (those are good burgers), speed of light tours (bunch of assholes), ralphs, robes? ;D I'm thinking 15% (http://dudeism.com/smf/Themes/classic/images/post/thumbup.gif)

If you can negotiate it, it will come!

Quote from: Andrea Da Fino on January 10, 2012, 02:46:14 AM
Well actually Popes and Bishops and Dogmas are a feature of Catholicism and other offsprings of Christianity and not of JCD religion. I see what you mean cck but you know I like splitting hairs. See it like the satellite thing from Rev. Ed, at least that's as I see it.  8)

As for the ID cards I find them cool, and useful if someone has to show proofs of ordination without having to go around with the certificate. Imdo.  ;D

i confess to having a wallet sized print out of my certificate in my ... wallet. but i have yet to see if flashing it anywhere gets a discount. or gets me thown out, of course ;)

Rev Ed, i fear the hassles of registering with the press association to get your press pass would tip you over the edge but i would be more than willing to provide a reference if needed :) who knows, perhaps this could be the answer to your employment woes?

Quote from: meekon5 on January 10, 2012, 07:33:24 AM

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on January 10, 2012, 06:14:19 AM
Would an ID card get me discounts on bowling, oat sodas, smoke, vaginal artwork, rugs, the rent, white russians, caucasians, theater, jelly saddles, beepers, in-and-out-bugers (those are good burgers), speed of light tours (bunch of assholes), ralphs, robes? ;D I'm thinking 15% (http://dudeism.com/smf/Themes/classic/images/post/thumbup.gif)

If you can negotiate it, it will come!

Fuckin' eh; if you will it, it is no dream. (http://dudeism.com/smf/Themes/classic/images/post/thumbup.gif)

Quote from: milnie on January 10, 2012, 11:59:24 AM
Rev Ed, i fear the hassles of registering with the press association to get your press pass would tip you over the edge...

Foiled again! :P

Quote from: milnie on January 10, 2012, 11:59:24 AM
who knows, perhaps this could be the answer to your employment woes?

I'll keep that in mind :)  Not that I'll do just any old thing for money, but my monkey's belly-growling is a terrible sound ;)

Wow! You dudes are into heavy duty take it all very seriously, institutional persnickety like hair splitting semantic debates ... AWESOME!

FWIW I'm not really digging the "American" versus "European" thing so much, but hey that's just my opinion ... and that of a bunch of folks from a couple of hundred years ago who seemed to prefer tea over coffee too.

Anyway ... thanks for the greetings (again) ... and the provocative considerations.

While I'm beyond offering anything other than opinions I have tons of those to share. Regarding my comments here they're largely coming from the what pulled me to want to roll a few with all'you'all in the first place.

IMO - TBL is a great satirical lens that lays out the many ways of being human. What the dude does so well is to flow with all of them ... in the words of the great, late Dr. Clare W. Graves ... he just "let people be" ... so very cool man.

The reason I think that some dudes (and probably some non-dudes too) find TBL so compelling is because it's fine satire. Referring back to my own comment about American Pragmatism ... that what is true is what is real (I didn't say that or make it up by the way ... I'm just quoting some other dudes with long hair who mostly came outta the New England (is that European?) woods who wrote about this stuff) ... and that our actions, or as the case may be our choice not to act, define us more than the words we use to describe those actions.

Another way of saying this might be in that great ancient proverb: "Your actions speak so loudly I can't hear you."

So it seems to me (just an opinion man) that dudeism is ultimately defined by being dudeish ... IMO (again) ... by abiding man, just being with the flow ... and acting in the moment of opportunity.

This last bit is something that most human paraquats can't, or won't, do ... i.e.: doing not until the moment of opportunity is upon them ... and acting without hesitation when it is ... that is reserved for master dudes only if my history serves me correctly.

Another series of great books that I would include in my dudely references are those written by the late great Carlos Castaneda ... but specifically the parts about acting like a warrior ... finding a path with heart, waiting breathlessly ... and knowing when the two centimeters of opportunity to act is upon you.

A later day disciple of Castaneda's, Felix Wolfe, wrote the "Art of Navigation" ... a very cool book that is dudely at it's core as well ... all about attuning to the signals in the system, noticing for what is present and allowing that to become your personal GPS guiding you along the way.

BUT - it's the art of finding the way through the lens of satire that appeals to me in the community of dudes. One thing I hold to be self evident is that truth is hard to come by, kinda like honesty, and getting to what is real even more so. Maybe we just not designed for it ... but if we're not, and it sure seems like we ain't, then using a fractured lens, like satire, may reveal to us glimpses of what is present beyond our own delusions and distortions.

It may not be the all and everything ... but TBL is a lens that suits me when when I find myself getting uptight about defining just about anything as being other than just what it is ... and allows me to resettle myself in abiding ... and just letting people be man ... just lettin' it be.

Okay, I'm moving on 'cause I seem to maybe have lost my train of thought there at the end a bit ...

I'm sure I've just read this....or is it a flash back?

I personally don't feel we have a duel going on twixt us Brits and our allies across the pond...I feel there is more mutual agreement and accord than any discontent or animosity...dudes are dudes wherever we hail from...surely?

If it seems that way to anyone then I would like to discuss this on a new thread...because in my mind and long before Dudeism I was a dude (didn't know it had a name) and I met many fellow dudes around this planet who felt the same...no animosity or misunderstandings between us, despite our varying cultures...

I met a new dude the other day...I've met him before and he's a kid, sorta finding himself in this huge world...he's just getting the planet and it's wonders...you know the type...you were all there once...so with typical unpreachiness I've given him a booklist of esoteric wonders to read...a proper list of books and authors and some websites....and I've told him that once his brain has stopped imploding to come and speak to me about Dudeism...maybe I'm right...maybe I'm wrong...let the whole darned comedy begin ....

Peace Brethern

Quoteso with typical unpreachiness I've given him a booklist of esoteric wonders to read...a proper list of books and authors and some websites....and I've told him that once his brain has stopped imploding to come and speak to me about Dudeism...

DUDE ... I love your way of ministering ...

Quote from: cckeiser on January 09, 2012, 10:01:09 PM
Ok, on a more serious note...would Dudeist I.D. cards help move us forward? 8)

i've seen this idea appear in numerous threads since the dudely lama flashes one on a VW advert but i understand it is not happening. unless new shit has come to light ... ?

Nuthin' wrong with creating your own... just print it on card stock and laminate it. It's not like we'd be breaking any laws...

wow- this is the thread i was looking for when i first started lurking through the boards a few hours ago! sadly now, i'm so tired to read all of it.

but i do want to say this-
The risk of being marginalized as nothing more than a movie fan cult and not being taken seriously as an actual religion is the heart of our calling. this is the problem we face, and must work together to overcome!
we have all been drawn together, called by the genuine catharsis that can be found in the wisdom of the Dudeist paradigm... and finding a way to spread the idea(s), without letting it fall into the same pitfalls all other religions have fallen into... well to quote one wise dude from back in the day: "there's the rub".

will have to come back to this post and read all 18 pages...

These are exactly the kinds of threads I don't understand why they died out long ago... That's just my opinion... I'm not a necrophiliac or anything, but this seems like the kind of topic that wouldn't lose steam, but rather gain it?

I'm still new here, so if I'm missing the obvious, please enlighten.

Since there's not a lot of traffic on the forum, it's not unusual for a thread to go dead. Necromancy on threads is accepted, but only when you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion.

Quote from: High Priest Allen on August 18, 2014, 05:04:35 PM
Since there's not a lot of traffic on the forum, it's not unusual for a thread to go dead. Necromancy on threads is accepted, but only when you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion.

Cool. Thanks for the clarification...

In the spirit of adding "something worthwhile" (although maybe this isn't worth much, just a few thoughts in response to a few of the issues I've glimpsed in the thread)...

One issue is with having it more open to the both sexes is the language. Although the FAQ (and pretty much everyone's voiced opinion) indicates females can be "Dudes" and to quote: "Dude is a philosophy and has nothing to do with maleness or femaleness". Except there is a feminine aspect to the vernacular when sticking with the movie; "Special Lady". And it seems to get plenty of use. Having that language/label is a distinguishing factor that might be off-putting (even while not being intentionally so).

I do know having just recently discovered Dudeism, then talking to friends and acquaintances about it, the majority of reactions from other people that have never heard of it are putting it in a parody/non-seriousness/dismissed out of turn category. I'm not sure how to alter that perception. Or if it even really needs to be altered. You can talk to individuals, and explain and such, but no idea how to address the masses/image.

I mean it took me a couple of hours of poking around the site to say "Ok this works for me". But like many here, I was already a Dude in all but name. I've actually turned a fair few folks onto Taoism throughout the years. And although I don't think of it as ministering or converting, I do think it's helped a few folks "take it easy". The biggest obstacle with that (if someone was open to it) was them wondering what the fuck I was talking about. Some folks hadn't ever heard of Taoism. But Dudeism? Almost everyone has seen the movie so it comes with a set of notions about it.

How are some of you other Dudes finding it these days? I mean some of these posts are years old (which is it's own kind of magical message in the bottle coolness). The perception thing I mean?

Got a few other things, but I think those were the ones that came to mind first.

Quote from: The Daryl on August 18, 2014, 05:42:04 PM
One issue is with having it more open to the both sexes is the language. Although the FAQ (and pretty much everyone's voiced opinion) indicates females can be "Dudes" and to quote: "Dude is a philosophy and has nothing to do with maleness or femaleness". Except there is a feminine aspect to the vernacular when sticking with the movie; "Special Lady". And it seems to get plenty of use. Having that language/label is a distinguishing factor that might be off-putting (even while not being intentionally so).

I can't speak for the female Dudes, but I can speak for someone who's not PC (neither was my favorite boss, a lady).

The female Dudes are welcome to have and call someone a Special Guy/Gentleman/Y Chromosome, should they be attracted to those with dangling bits.

I think the main reason is that the male Dudes do talk about their Special Ladies, since they have one and (generally) are very proud that one deems the Dude worthy to stick around. So far, the female Dudes just haven't had as many conversations about their Special Significant Others. Not to say they don't find them wonderful, but they haven't.

Maybe a female Dude would like to chime in and enlighten us?

Quote from: Hominid on January 12, 2012, 08:21:13 AM
Nuthin' wrong with creating your own... just print it on card stock and laminate it. It's not like we'd be breaking any laws...

Sounds exhausting. ;D

Quote from: The Daryl on August 18, 2014, 05:42:04 PM

Quote from: High Priest Allen on August 18, 2014, 05:04:35 PM
Since there's not a lot of traffic on the forum, it's not unusual for a thread to go dead. Necromancy on threads is accepted, but only when you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion.

I do know having just recently discovered Dudeism, then talking to friends and acquaintances about it, the majority of reactions from other people that have never heard of it are putting it in a parody/non-seriousness/dismissed out of turn category. I'm not sure how to alter that perception. Or if it even really needs to be altered..



How are some of you other Dudes finding it these days? I mean some of these posts are years old (which is it's own kind of magical message in the bottle coolness). The perception thing I mean?

Yeah, on the rarified occasion I've mentioned Dudeism to someone the reaction is generally baffled /dismissive. I don't really initiate conversations about it. It's something that speaks to me and my frame of reference, but as you and many others have said, I was like this before I knew about Dudeism.

This is the key. The ideas of Dudeism are not unique to Dudeism, they are not the creation of Dudeism. Dudeism is a context, a narrative framework. So while I may struggle to explain it to someone unfamiliar with the film, I can easily explain the concept - just take it easy - and offer it as advice. I can encourage people who are looking for an answer or having troubles to embrace or at least consider the ideals of Dudeism, without having to mention Dudeism or Lebowski or the fucking Eagles, man.

I don't care if the majority of people don't get, don't understand or otherwise never partake of Dudeism. But I'd love it if they could learn to abide.

Quote from: The Daryl on August 18, 2014, 05:42:04 PM...One issue is with having it more open to the both sexes is the language. Although the FAQ (and pretty much everyone's voiced opinion) indicates females can be "Dudes" and to quote: "Dude is a philosophy and has nothing to do with maleness or femaleness". Except there is a feminine aspect to the vernacular when sticking with the movie; "Special Lady". And it seems to get plenty of use. Having that language/label is a distinguishing factor that might be off-putting (even while not being intentionally so)...

Ah, but in this context, and in the movie, terms like "Special Lady" and "Lady Friend" are not synonymous with "Dude".  "Special Lady" and "Lady Friend" are euphemisms for "girlfriend" and/or "good friend with whom I have sex" (and by extension, I suppose, could also be a reference to one's "wife") with no indication of that person's theological, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs.  In the movie Da Fino refers to Maude as the Dude's "Special Lady" and the Dude tries to correct him by referring to her as his "Lady Friend", but Maude is most certainly not a "Dude" as we on this forum would use that term to describe a Dudeist.  So while a Dude can be a Special Lady or a Lady Friend, a Special Lady or Lady Friend isn't necessarily a Dude.

Now let's look at this from another perspective and think about the statement on the "What is Dudeism?" page:  "Incidentally, the term 'dude' is commonly agreed to refer to both genders. Most linguists contend that 'Dudette' is not in keeping with the parlance of our times."  As far as I know, no currently organized religions have gender-specific terms for their followers (I hope someone here will correct me if I'm wrong).  Christians are Christians regardless of whether they're male or female; there in no such thing as a Christianette or Christianess.  Buddhists are Buddhists regardless of whether they're male or female; there is no such thing as a Buddhistette or Buddhistess.  So it makes perfect sense that a Dudeist would be a Dude regardless of whether they're male or female.

Quote from: The Daryl on August 18, 2014, 05:42:04 PM...I do know having just recently discovered Dudeism, then talking to friends and acquaintances about it, the majority of reactions from other people that have never heard of it are putting it in a parody/non-seriousness/dismissed out of turn category. I'm not sure how to alter that perception. Or if it even really needs to be altered. You can talk to individuals, and explain and such, but no idea how to address the masses/image...I've actually turned a fair few folks onto Taoism throughout the years. And although I don't think of it as ministering or converting, I do think it's helped a few folks "take it easy". The biggest obstacle with that (if someone was open to it) was them wondering what the fuck I was talking about. Some folks hadn't ever heard of Taoism. But Dudeism? Almost everyone has seen the movie so it comes with a set of notions about it.

How are some of you other Dudes finding it these days? I mean some of these posts are years old (which is it's own kind of magical message in the bottle coolness). The perception thing I mean?

Quote from: mrpaddy on August 19, 2014, 11:46:27 AMYeah, on the rarified occasion I've mentioned Dudeism to someone the reaction is generally baffled /dismissive. I don't really initiate conversations about it. It's something that speaks to me and my frame of reference, but as you and many others have said, I was like this before I knew about Dudeism...

Most of the people I know may or may not have heard of The Big Lebowski, and the majority of those who have heard of it haven't seen it, so they have no frame of reference with regards to the term "Dudeist".  Tell them it started with a movie, and the "doors of acceptance" in their minds will close up tighter than Fort Knox.  The perception that we're just a bunch of lunatics will be extremely difficult to overcome, but I imagine it was that way with every newly-formed religion.  And there is at least one precedence--some Star Wars fans have been declaring their religion as "Jedi" on official forms and documents for years now; the difference is that they didn't have a Dudely Lama to guide them and keep them on the right path.

Quote from: mrpaddy on August 19, 2014, 11:46:27 AM...This is the key. The ideas of Dudeism are not unique to Dudeism, they are not the creation of Dudeism. Dudeism is a context, a narrative framework. So while I may struggle to explain it to someone unfamiliar with the film, I can easily explain the concept - just take it easy - and offer it as advice. I can encourage people who are looking for an answer or having troubles to embrace or at least consider the ideals of Dudeism, without having to mention Dudeism or Lebowski or the fucking Eagles, man.

I don't care if the majority of people don't get, don't understand or otherwise never partake of Dudeism. But I'd love it if they could learn to abide.

This is one of the reasons that I personally would not self-apply the term "religion" to Dudeism.

First, because I believe it's more of a philosophy or way-of-life than a religion.

Second, because the word "religion" itself can be off-putting.  There are a lot of people here in the U.S. alone that are self-proclaimed atheists who hear the word "religion" and immediately want nothing to do with it.  Agnostics may do the same thing, but those who are actively seeking enlightenment or some form of faith might be more receptive.  And those who grew up following, and continue to follow in their adulthood, a currently established religion like Christianity or Judaism might have a great deal of difficulty understanding the concept of a "religion" with no deity (or deities) and no "heavenly reward" to strive for (at least here in the U.S.) even if Dudeism offers a better or simpler way to live than the one they have now.

That said, with regards to Dudeism I'll readily admit I'm like a child who has wandered into the middle of a movie with no frame of reference.  Many of the conversations on this forum have made me realize just how little I know about current religions and philosophies--I'm a fucking amateur, and you have all given me a lot to consider (and I mean that in the best possible way).  So, since wiser fellers than myself have chosen to call it a religion, I'll abide.  Mark it 8, Dudes.

Fucking A, man. Paddy, Daryl, the mysterious The Masked Dude! ( I assume you fight crime with a bowling ball), Al y'all are completely right on the money. I occasionally get asked what Dudeism is and what I usually tell them that are ethos is 'just take it easy'. They might say that's not a religion. I then respond with ' Well that's some rigid fucking thinking, but if you must know, our ethos has existed since ancient times down through the ages to now. Whether it was a chinese sage, a greek philosopher, or a bunch of irish monks someone has been taking it easy when it comes to going where life takes 'em. The movie is just a modern narrative that helps show people what being a dude should be like in our times '. Then they either say ' well that's interesting ' or roll their eyes and say ' yeah sure '.

Quote from: Reverend Al on August 19, 2014, 06:08:10 PM
Most of the people I know may or may not have heard of The Big Lebowski, and the majority of those who have heard of it haven't seen it, so they have no frame of reference with regards to the term "Dudeist".  Tell them it started with a movie, and the "doors of acceptance" in their minds will close up tighter than Fort Knox.

Have you tried showing them our fancy new ID card with the holographic thingie on it? I mean, c'mon, that's pretty official and stuff.

Haven't had an opportunity to use mine yet, but it's tucked in my wallet between my explosives permit and a guild card.

Quote from: jgiffin on August 19, 2014, 11:09:23 PM

Quote from: Reverend Al on August 19, 2014, 06:08:10 PM
Most of the people I know may or may not have heard of The Big Lebowski, and the majority of those who have heard of it haven't seen it, so they have no frame of reference with regards to the term "Dudeist".  Tell them it started with a movie, and the "doors of acceptance" in their minds will close up tighter than Fort Knox.

Have you tried showing them our fancy new ID card with the holographic thingie on it? I mean, c'mon, that's pretty official and stuff.

I haven't had an opportunity to show it to anyone who might give a shit yet.  And among the people I mentioned in that post my ID card and a five dollar bill would get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but not much else.   ::)

Okies you know I mentioned the vernacular? And the special lady thing? That was only in response to earlier comments in this thread (years old) about female Dudes...

I received my Abide Guide today... I asked my wife to check out the back cover.

Then I asked her what would she think if she read it at a bookstore... She responded put it back on the shelf. I said Never even open it? She responded Nope, it wasn't really offensive but it was patronizing (to which we then had a 10 minute convo about semantics of which is worse, etc). Then got into a multi hour conversation about Dudeism, movies, current events, and everything else while I enjoyed some bourbon.

For those that don't know the backcover says "New feminist philosophy for special ladies".

Now it's important to point out: I haven't read those chapters/parts. I have no idea what they say. The only relevant thing seems to be that's not a good choice of words to attract.

My wife loves TBL; she actually requests it on movie nights more than I do. And still finds that patronizing.... I think the idea of semantics makes sense for someone familiar with it, and is off putting for someone that isn't (and trust me, this is from a guy that called males AND females dude/man for years, until females kept saying it was offensive so I switched to "chick" and that was offensive too, and I ended up where I started with calling everyone dude/man... words can be unintended weapons).

Rather than get into semantics again, only for the sake and framework of "moving Dudeism forward" It's not intentionally off putting, but it is all the same.... Off to finish my bottle, but all the above is just my opinions of my personal experience I thought I'd share.

Interesting concepts here. Presuming that Dudeism attracts a disproportionately male demographic - which seems true subjectively but doesn't appear objectively verified - that is kinda concerning; not the least because the result is at odds with the underlying belief system. A more consistent state would be a Dudeism with complentary male/female aspects. Then again, there's a pretty strong individualist strain to Dudeism, too, but that still begs the question why these individuals are disproportionately male.

I'm no expert but women seem more proportionately represented in the eastern religions which influence Dudeism. So the substance of the thing doesn't appear to be the problem. I wonder if the phenomenon has something to do with Dudeism being, to date and at least as exhibited here, a relatively internet-centric congregation. There aren't a lot of in-person meetings, structured activities, communal efforts, etc. It's stereotyping but maybe those aspects are more attractive to the female of the species than what we have here - which is, I don't know, a bit based on pulling Dudeist related concepts from news, media, or entertainment, arguing/debating about it, and then finding something from TBL to ground home some final salient point or prompt a smile.

Then again, the forum (and any religion/belief-system/etc) is what you make it. So it would ostensibly change with a larger influx of women. But since they're not here in significant numbers, it doesn't. Kind of a variant of the anthropic principle. 

I see your points and give us a lot to ponder. One of my female friends has a lot of philosophical beliefs close to Taoism and Dudeism. However, she won't even give Dudeism a second thought because she absolutely hates the movie. She does read anything espousing feminism because (in her words) they usually are too preachy.

I think I can see the point about the wording being off-putting. The short space & time dedicated to back covers can be hard to garner attention.

All in all, I don't know, dude. It's all funky.

Quote from: jgiffin on August 20, 2014, 09:22:02 AM
I'm no expert but women seem more proportionately represented in the eastern religions which influence Dudeism. So the substance of the thing doesn't appear to be the problem. I wonder if the phenomenon has something to do with Dudeism being, to date and at least as exhibited here, a relatively internet-centric congregation. There aren't a lot of in-person meetings, structured activities, communal efforts, etc. It's stereotyping but maybe those aspects are more attractive to the female of the species than what we have here - which is, I don't know, a bit based on pulling Dudeist related concepts from news, media, or entertainment, arguing/debating about it, and then finding something from TBL to ground home some final salient point or prompt a smile.

So, should we have those sort of things in order to attract more?

These responses are great...

I mean process, in a lot of ways is better than product.... I guess that sounds stupid but I don't know how else to put it; Discussion of Dudeism? Oh ya. Lotta ins, lotta outs...

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44783377.jpg)

Quote from: High Priest Allen on August 20, 2014, 05:48:35 PM

Quote from: jgiffin on August 20, 2014, 09:22:02 AM
I'm no expert but women seem more proportionately represented in the eastern religions which influence Dudeism. So the substance of the thing doesn't appear to be the problem. I wonder if the phenomenon has something to do with Dudeism being, to date and at least as exhibited here, a relatively internet-centric congregation. There aren't a lot of in-person meetings, structured activities, communal efforts, etc. It's stereotyping but maybe those aspects are more attractive to the female of the species than what we have here - which is, I don't know, a bit based on pulling Dudeist related concepts from news, media, or entertainment, arguing/debating about it, and then finding something from TBL to ground home some final salient point or prompt a smile.

So, should we have those sort of things in order to attract more?

In regards to attracting ladies, I think we face the inherent issue of nomenclature. Without any description of belief system or practices, "Dudeism" comes off as being masculine. I know we all profess that being Dude is gender neutral, yet we have societal connotations that are projected onto the term. Our best bet is to champion our fellow female Dudeists as a spotlight for females in the community.

More in-person gatherings could be fantastic, but I think in so doing we face a sort of paradigm shift in our philosophy. We strive to Take 'er easy, but if we start encouraging congregation, aren't we walking on a slippery slope towards organized religion?

As always, these are just like, my opinions, man.

Quotearen't we walking on a slippery slope towards organized religion

This may not relate, but in light of the latest middle eastern bullshit (ISIS and all that), I think that the worst thing Dudeism could ever transform into would be jihadist pot smokers who tell everyone to, like, take it easy.

Peace everyone.

I admit - I'm confused/unsure where that last series of thoughts/statements come from, Chase.

I don't know how encouraging congregation is any kind of slippery slope. How is a group of like minded folks coming together a bad thing?

I guess, to my perspective, it doesn't involve any shift of philosophy. I mean, hell, this message board is an expression of that; A kind of virtual community of like minded folks coming together to share thoughts, ideas, a few laughs... In person would just be adding some beers, and maybe some burgers (veggie for some us) to the equation.

I tend to agree with Hominid's sentiment... When you think about it, the worse case for Dudeism evolving and becoming more "organized" is better than best case for many other groups.

All the above, just, like my opinions, man  8)

Quote from: The Daryl on October 01, 2014, 02:09:35 AM
I admit - I'm confused/unsure where that last series of thoughts/statements come from, Chase.

I don't know how encouraging congregation is any kind of slippery slope. How is a group of like minded folks coming together a bad thing?

I guess, to my perspective, it doesn't involve any shift of philosophy. I mean, hell, this message board is an expression of that; A kind of virtual community of like minded folks coming together to share thoughts, ideas, a few laughs... In person would just be adding some beers, and maybe some burgers (veggie for some us) to the equation.

I tend to agree with Hominid's sentiment... When you think about it, the worse case for Dudeism evolving and becoming more "organized" is better than best case for many other groups.

All the above, just, like my opinions, man  8)

I think it's subtle.
One thing is riding in the cart while enjoying a tasty beverage.
The other is getting out and pushing the card around town with a big banner on the side ringing a bell and selling subscriptions.
I stand by my statement.

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44783377.jpg)

Quote from: jgiffin on August 19, 2014, 11:09:23 PM

Quote from: Reverend Al on August 19, 2014, 06:08:10 PM
Most of the people I know may or may not have heard of The Big Lebowski, and the majority of those who have heard of it haven't seen it, so they have no frame of reference with regards to the term "Dudeist".  Tell them it started with a movie, and the "doors of acceptance" in their minds will close up tighter than Fort Knox.

Have you tried showing them our fancy new ID card with the holographic thingie on it? I mean, c'mon, that's pretty official and stuff.

Here in Australia everybody i talk too seems to love Dudeisim when i talk about it, must be the flora and fauna trying to kill you all the time that gives people a Dudely outlook or sompthing.

Quote from: BikerDude on October 01, 2014, 08:47:02 AM
The other is getting out and pushing the card around town with a big banner on the side ringing a bell and selling subscriptions.

Just don't go peddling your blaspheming subscriptions on the west side of town, Bikerdude! That's "reformed dudeist orthodox" turf. And we rep our shit, yo.

The trick is; how do you move Dudeism forward while being a slacker at the same time? 8)

It could be that this is a hint on how to do it...

(http://www.rugrag.com/image.axd?picture=PICT0150.jpg)

Quote from: DigitalBuddha on October 01, 2014, 09:36:43 PM
The trick is; how do you move Dudeism forward while being a slacker at the same time? 8)

It could be that this is a hint on how to do it...

(http://www.rugrag.com/image.axd?picture=PICT0150.jpg)

That...or we could talk about it for a while, drop it, and then intermittently raise the issue only to have it repeatedly drowned by our lack of motivation.

Yeah, I think we have that down pat.

Quote from: jgiffin on October 01, 2014, 10:11:50 PM
That...or we could talk about it for a while, drop it, and then intermittently raise the issue only to have it repeatedly drowned by our lack of motivation.

Yeah, I think we have that down pat.

Ebb and flow, man :)

Personally, I've found huge chunks of this thread interesting and even inspiring. But you can only fuck it to play bowling for the stanley cup so many times before the thrill is gone ;)

I tried to move Dudeism forward... but that thing was heavy, man.  Can't somebody else do it?  The Cap'n has a bad back, dudes.

So how do we move Dudeism forward while still slacking? We let it move forward on its own. Be Dudeists. Drink white russians, smoke a J, and bring the room together with your rug.

Others who are looking for a new belief system will stop and ask "Hey there, you seem very happy and chill. What do you do?"

And then you will say "The Dude Abides."

Quote from: His Dudeliness, Chase on October 05, 2014, 10:57:24 PM
So how do we move Dudeism forward while still slacking? We let it move forward on its own. Be Dudeists. Drink white russians, smoke a J, and bring the room together with your rug.

Others who are looking for a new belief system will stop and ask "Hey there, you seem very happy and chill. What do you do?"

And then you will say "The Dude Abides."

Now yer getting it.

To quote the front page...

Quote
Come join the slowest-growing religion in the world ? Dudeism. An ancient philosophy that preaches non-preachiness, practices as little as possible, and above all, uh?lost my train of thought there. Anyway, if you?d like to find peace on earth and goodwill, man, we?ll help you get started. Right after a little nap

Personally if a person is truly groping for meaning and undergoing some type of crisis I would refrain from suggesting a religion based on a fictional character from a movie (in spite of the numerous mainstream religion likewise based on fictional characters).
Just my opinion man.
This is not to say that the beliefs and attitude is without merit. It really is.
It's resemblance to Taoism is real.

Take em bowling. Or just be a Dude and hang with em. At times thought is the enemy.
Abiding is the cure.

Quote from: BikerDude on October 07, 2014, 10:51:22 AM...Personally if a person is truly groping for meaning and undergoing some type of crisis I would refrain from suggesting a religion based on a fictional character from a movie (in spite of the numerous mainstream religion likewise based on fictional characters).
Just my opinion man.
This is not to say that the beliefs and attitude is without merit. It really is.
It's resemblance to Taoism is real...

Mark it eight, Dudes.  If someone is having a personal crisis on whatever level, it's probably not the best idea to start with, "Have you ever seen The Big Lebowski?"  But the cool thing about Dudeism is that we're able to draw on wisdom that has been perpetuated down through the generations and across the sands of time, regardless of whether the source is a previously established religion, a philosophy, or just something someone scrawled on a cocktail napkin.  It certainly has it's foundation in Taoism and Zen, but let's not forget, let's not forget there's a whole lot of enlightenment out there that has nothing to do with spiritual belief.  If it works, it works, simple as that.  And it does it all without being judgmental--none of that finger-pointing or "Oh, you shouldn't have done that," crap.  Nobody's perfect, nobody has a perfect life.  We all fuck up from time to time, and we all go through shit we have to deal with.  Dudeism simply helps us get back on the right path and helps us get through those difficult times without the added bullshit of feeling like we're being put on trial or will somehow be punished...well, except for Karma, but...aww hell, I'm ramblin' again.

Regardless of how it started, Dudeism is about living a better, simpler life without all of the baggage that comes with some of the other religions.  Of course, that's just, like, my opinion, man;  I could be wrong.

Quote from: Reverend Al on October 07, 2014, 08:08:44 PM

Quote from: BikerDude on October 07, 2014, 10:51:22 AM...Personally if a person is truly groping for meaning and undergoing some type of crisis I would refrain from suggesting a religion based on a fictional character from a movie (in spite of the numerous mainstream religion likewise based on fictional characters).
Just my opinion man.
This is not to say that the beliefs and attitude is without merit. It really is.
It's resemblance to Taoism is real...

Mark it eight, Dudes.  If someone is having a personal crisis on whatever level, it's probably not the best idea to start with, "Have you ever seen The Big Lebowski?"  But the cool thing about Dudeism is that we're able to draw on wisdom that has been perpetuated down through the generations and across the sands of time, regardless of whether the source is a previously established religion, a philosophy, or just something someone scrawled on a cocktail napkin.  It certainly has it's foundation in Taoism and Zen, but let's not forget, let's not forget there's a whole lot of enlightenment out there that has nothing to do with spiritual belief.  If it works, it works, simple as that.  And it does it all without being judgmental--none of that finger-pointing or "Oh, you shouldn't have done that," crap.  Nobody's perfect, nobody has a perfect life.  We all fuck up from time to time, and we all go through shit we have to deal with.  Dudeism simply helps us get back on the right path and helps us get through those difficult times without the added bullshit of feeling like we're being put on trial or will somehow be punished...well, except for Karma, but...aww hell, I'm ramblin' again.

Regardless of how it started, Dudeism is about living a better, simpler life without all of the baggage that comes with some of the other religions.  Of course, that's just, like, my opinion, man;  I could be wrong.

Well said.

I don't believe a Dudeist would ever say having an existential, mid life, or life altering crisis we have the cure for what ails yah. I believe a Dudeist would be more like F#$% it lets have a time out and go have a beer and bowl, and if they are wise from years of living or because of mind blasting life happenings maybe they might impart some of that Dudely wisdom, but never do I picture a Dudeist saying follow me, my way is awesome, and will fix yah right up that is just not realistic within the reality of life or the Dude. Of course, that is just like my opinion and as life shows all, opinions are like butt holes everyone has them, and like all butt holes, most of the time it is only relevant to the owner.   

Quote from: amogorilla77 on October 15, 2014, 04:08:17 PM
I don't believe a Dudeist would ever say having an existential, mid life, or life altering crisis we have the cure for what ails yah. I believe a Dudeist would be more like F#$% it lets have a time out and go have a beer and bowl, and if they are wise from years of living or because of mind blasting life happenings maybe they might impart some of that Dudely wisdom, but never do I picture a Dudeist saying follow me, my way is awesome, and will fix yah right up that is just not realistic within the reality of life or the Dude. Of course, that is just like my opinion and as life shows all, opinions are like butt holes everyone has them, and like all butt holes, most of the time it is only relevant to the owner.

This hits it, man.  Dudeism isn't about the preaching, it's about the doing, about the abiding and setting an example for those around us.  Going back to what prompted this thread several years ago, I think we, as dudeists, all need to be ready to (to use a christian phrase unfortunately) "witness" when the need arises.  If we're out and about and see someone obviously having a bad day, we should be friendly and remind them to "take her easy" if it's appropriate, or if it's our friend or family member, actually help them to do it; take them bowling or offer them a drink or something.  No preaching needed- just set the example of how to abide.  Then, if they ask, tell them about being a Dude.

It's been a long two days reading all 20 pages of this but it's been incredibly, incredibly insightful, especially considering I'm starting a podcast.  I'd love to see our lifestyle grow and I hope I can be a part of that, with or without the 'cast.

Quote from: cckeiser on August 13, 2011, 04:20:29 PM
What's That Smell!? ???

Yo meekon5, cakebelly!...you smell something rotten here?
Do I detect the rancid odor of "Christianization" going on here?

WTF!?...expanding the Dudeist canon - move it - springboard - propel - evolving our philosophies - broadening our base of members/followers/believers.

Yo dudes...just feed it; keep the fuckin' Christians out, allow it to be organic and grow on it's own. 8)

I am a Christian Dudeist... That is VERY UNDUDE of you and edging onto full out Walter ragefest!

Dudeism is no Joke to me... I want to further the Dudeway... Which is personal to each who follows it. Unique in what contributes to each Dudeists walk... If your not down with that your already off the path man! Or Dudeism is already a bait and switch lie to draw suckers in and then hit them with bigoted and uptight behind the curtain politics. I hope not!

(http://www.memecommunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/anigif_enhanced-buzz-3680-1365442519-3.gif)

Abiding in Christ,

Christian Dude
(some of my biggest fans are heathens... it's OK if you're on your own path)

Quote from: ChristianDude on April 07, 2016, 09:47:38 AM

Quote from: cckeiser on August 13, 2011, 04:20:29 PM
What's That Smell!? ???

Yo meekon5, cakebelly!...you smell something rotten here?
Do I detect the rancid odor of "Christianization" going on here?

WTF!?...expanding the Dudeist canon - move it - springboard - propel - evolving our philosophies - broadening our base of members/followers/believers.

Yo dudes...just feed it; keep the fuckin' Christians out, allow it to be organic and grow on it's own. 8)

I am a Christian Dudeist... That is VERY UNDUDE of you and edging onto full out Walter ragefest!

Dudeism is no Joke to me... I want to further the Dudeway... Which is personal to each who follows it. Unique in what contributes to each Dudeists walk... If your not down with that your already off the path man! Or Dudeism is already a bait and switch lie to draw suckers in and then hit them with bigoted and uptight behind the curtain politics. I hope not!

(http://www.memecommunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/anigif_enhanced-buzz-3680-1365442519-3.gif)

Abiding in Christ,

Christian Dude
(some of my biggest fans are heathens... it's OK if you're on your own path)

Hey Christian Dude, welcome to the lanes!  Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, you will encounter Dudeists here who will be hesitant, at the very least, to easily accept someone who openly professes their affiliation with Christianity in any form.  Y'see, one of the reasons we're all here is because many of us have rejected the so-called "western" religions like Christianity, we're tired of having their Dogma shoved down our throats, and we're seeking refuge from that sort of thing.  In fact, many Dudeists are atheists and agnostics.  That being said, you're bound to encounter some resistance here to the mere mention of Christianity.  That is not to say you're unwelcome, but persistent promotion of Christianity isn't welcome simply because that's not what we're about.  It's as out-of-place here as interrupting services in a Catholic church to educate the parishioners about Buddhism.  Dudeism is a very accepting belief but, like any other organization, like-minded individuals will be a better fit.

Also, you shouldn't expect a direct response from Chuck "cckeiser" Keiser because he passed away nearly two years ago.

I am a Christian Dudeist... That is VERY UNDUDE of you and edging onto full out Walter ragefest!

Dudeism is no Joke to me... I want to further the Dudeway... Which is personal to each who follows it. Unique in what contributes to each Dudeists walk... If your not down with that your already off the path man!
[/quote]

I think if you take dudeism too seriously, you kinda miss the point. Spouting out "I am this or that dudeist", encourages segregation and division and dudes abiding in their own clique, which goes against the community spirit of dudeism.

So there's Christian dudes, hindudes, Buddudes etc, which is cool, unless they use their belief to judge others, then they become undude and that shit just don't fly round these parts.

Grab an oat soda, hang out and what not, but judge not, lest ye be an asshole etc.

Got it Brother D :)

If you see some of my other posts you'll see I am not here to do any of that. Or breed division as Reverend Al mentions...

However... with the strong Eastern references which abound in Dudeism... I am simply drawing a distinction to define my path as a Dudeist being steered by First Draft Christianity and the Dudely walk of Jesus Christ. It is inevitable that I (or any other Christian Dude) will be asked, "How can you be a Christian AND a Dudeist?"

I for one will be ready with an answer: 1 Peter 3:15  "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"

Give or take certain particulars and beliefs... a TRUE Christian Dude should somewhat resemble The Dude! And all joking aside... and I do love to joke... Dudeism contributes to an understanding of a less uptight path that Jesus intended humanity to follow :) I intend to bring that shit to light going both ways... in Dudeism and to Uptight Christians. Help me by making this a place where they feel safe to loosen up... and maybe we will get a few less uptight Christians.

I just came to check out the lanes and was shocked to see that my fellow Dudeists coming from other walks (particularly the atheists and agnostics) were doing exactly what you describe... against Christians. How can I (or other potential Christian or Theists of any kind) feel welcome to Dudeism if what they see is open derision of their beliefs (if you don't see that in the forums... your not reading them).

My intent here is purely the contributions of First Draft Christianity and the Dudely walk of Jesus Christ pertaining to Dudeism... not the direct promotion of Christianity. Anything beyond that has its place somewhere else or at the very least wherever this forum deems it on topic. I am here to be a Dude.

Thanks for the Greets!

Hello everyone, just recently joined the forums.

For myself, personally I further Dudeism by simply offering it up when asked.  So if people as you about what you do, or your hobbies, or what have you, I include Dudeist Monk on the list and it usually leads to conversation.

Other than that, I invite friends to come to gatherings, bbq's, bowling, what not, and refer to it as a congregation.

Again, these small subtle things in day to day life can help Dudeism along, albeit slowly.

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It seams to me that there is an abundance of "Sage Advice" to be had with the material already available. From what I have seen of the Dudely Lama in interviews and other public appearances he has done great in communicating the essence of Dudeism as both a casual and fun way of life not to be taken too seriously AND a legit set of principles that someone can apply to benefit themselves and society.

Probably best to keep it principle based and broad in its application... A path to taking it easy and self expression that is self-evident by the basic tone (rather than as you've already noted regarding specific canon). Rather like Jeet Kune Do (in fact I would say Dudeism is part of my JKD) is a path to self-expression arrived at through applying principles that work for you. Many of them will be universal or common... some might only apply to a select few.

What exactly seems to be lacking in what is already available in the materials that have been produced?

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That sounds pretty cool man!

Maybe a story driven "choose your path" kind of thing... Unless you are going full on "open" world. That would be a ton of work!

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Wave of the future dude, 100% electronic. Maybe you could have a waltometer, going from dude (green with rust colouration), to paraquat/ asshole (red for the square community). If you fail the modest task which is your charge, (abiding), a plane crashes into a mountain.

Quote from: SagebrushSage on April 14, 2016, 02:09:32 PMWhat is lacking is a rich tradition of art and symbolism within this culture, as compared to other religions.  Dudeism lacks cultural substance.  This movement needs to produce artistic, musical, and literary works that challenge and inspire our adherents in ways that explore Dudeism or Abideism as a coherent ethical philosophy outside of the "The Big Lebowski" setting.  Ideally, a number of such works would be controversial in nature and would spark conversation about important matters in this community.  As a new independent video game developer who is trying to figure out a way to explore Dudeism in an interactive work, I am not being hypocritical in suggesting this.

You're approaching the question of "What is lacking?" from an artistic/creative perspective, and I dig that, but I think you might be putting the cart before the horse.  The "big" religions have existed in one form or another for centuries, but Dudeism has only existed for, what, maybe 15 years?  And as this thread shows, discussions about defining Dudeism are still ongoing and we're really not much closer to reaching a universal consensus among Dudeists except for "Abide" and "Be cool", and even those are vaguely defined at best.

I'm not saying art and symbolism are unimportant--far from it--but if we're going to use visual media to explain what we're about (beyond the currently available tee shirts and bumper stickers, that is) I do think it's important that any such media doesn't send the wrong message if Dudeism is going to be taken seriously.  Artists aren't going to know what kinds of symbolism are "wrong" if we can't tell them, and we can't tell them until we know ourselves.

On a semi-related note, I wonder if the Dudely Lama truly understands what he started here.  ;D

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Sage, examine the motivations, actions, and outcomes of characters in TBL. Most often, people get what's coming to them. If your game has a fighter, well, look what happened to the nihilists. They created their own karma. So could your characters. Their outcomes could be both symbolic and perfectly compatible with their motivations and actions. The trick is to weave everything together so it's not forced. Let people fail. Otherwise, they can't succeed.

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By the way, what's a JRPG?

Quote from: Masked Dude on April 17, 2016, 07:12:42 PMBy the way, what's a JRPG?

Japanese Role-Playing Game.  Essentially, role-playing games (tabletop and video) developed in East Asia.

From what I've seen Dudeism is moving forward, albeit in it's own slow paced way. People are doing things all the time to spread the word. There is the Dudeism TV channel on YouTube, StAugustineDude and myself do a Dudeism podcast called the Dudecast, we've been mentioned in news shows, magazines, books, and all sorts of other media, and there have even been a few gatherings or festivals put together. Like others have said the other religions have the advantage of being thousands of years old, scientology had the advantage of celebrity endorsement, and we have word of mouth and the dedication of us Dudeists. Give it time and let it evolve on it's own otherwise we run the risk of turning it into something instead of letting it become something, kind of like what the church did and then you get crusades, dark ages, and all other sorts of nonsense. If enough of us embrace it and live the lifestyle then eventually it will start to catch on. The beauty of it to me is that Dudeism is still simple and pure, we have the opportunity to keep it that way and avoid the mistakes that all the others have made before us....or maybe I'm just being dramatic, who knows.

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Quote from: Reverend Al on April 14, 2016, 08:03:23 PM

Quote from: SagebrushSage on April 14, 2016, 02:09:32 PMWhat is lacking is a rich tradition of art and symbolism within this culture, as compared to other religions.  Dudeism lacks cultural substance.  This movement needs to produce artistic, musical, and literary works that challenge and inspire our adherents in ways that explore Dudeism or Abideism as a coherent ethical philosophy outside of the "The Big Lebowski" setting.  Ideally, a number of such works would be controversial in nature and would spark conversation about important matters in this community.  As a new independent video game developer who is trying to figure out a way to explore Dudeism in an interactive work, I am not being hypocritical in suggesting this.

You're approaching the question of "What is lacking?" from an artistic/creative perspective, and I dig that, but I think you might be putting the cart before the horse.  The "big" religions have existed in one form or another for centuries, but Dudeism has only existed for, what, maybe 15 years?  And as this thread shows, discussions about defining Dudeism are still ongoing and we're really not much closer to reaching a universal consensus among Dudeists except for "Abide" and "Be cool", and even those are vaguely defined at best.

I'm not saying art and symbolism are unimportant--far from it--but if we're going to use visual media to explain what we're about (beyond the currently available tee shirts and bumper stickers, that is) I do think it's important that any such media doesn't send the wrong message if Dudeism is going to be taken seriously.  Artists aren't going to know what kinds of symbolism are "wrong" if we can't tell them, and we can't tell them until we know ourselves.

On a semi-related note, I wonder if the Dudely Lama truly understands what he started here.  ;D

In an effort to help move Dudeism forwards, I have started a wiki for Dudeism

I'm hoping this will become a reference for all things Dudeist... everything from reading material, like Tao Te Ching summary/translation, to quotes and bios from Great Dudes in History... We'll have a list for any holidays, like Lebowski Fest

I plan to make a new thread once I find a nice rug to tie the site together (read: get it presentable)

If anyone wants to help get some material started before the rug pissers show up, shoot me a PM and I'll hook you up with the URL

I'm not trying to piss on any rugs here man. After all, I commend your enthusiasm with wanting to start a wiki for our ways. But I'm wondering... Is there much missing off the main Dudeism website that would go in the wiki? I just don't want anyone doing wearing themselves out re-creating stuff.

Well dude, we just don't know...

I'd like to help expand dudeism and move it forwards... I feel like there isn't really a lot of material in regards to dudeism... And what little there is, is mostly movie puns

I know we have dudes around from all walks of life who could add their 2 cents about dudeist philosophy, or great dudes in history... I know a fair bit about Jesus, but almost nothing about Buddha, Ghandi, etc... I'd like to see people add some reading material, biographies, inspirational quotes, etc... like a general reference for dudeism

Sure, some of this stuff is on wikipedia or wherever, but wikipedia is wikipedia... it's not written by dudeists, for dudeists

I dunno, that's just my opinion man

...

Yeah! I would love to work on that wiki, it sounds like a great idea!

Ahhh... I think I get what you're saying. That could make for some interesting reading.

Something that I was thinking about recently is that I wouldn't appreciate the Tao Te Ching (or the Dude De Ching for that matter) anywhere near as much as I do now if I hadn't spent a lot of time reading up on Buddhist philosophy. Before all that study, the Tao Te Ching seemed like a bunch of vague new age fluff. But afterward, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense, and it feels like a broad sweeping big picture of it all.

That's my basic idea... sharing of information... If you are privy to some new shit, share it!

I suppose if anyone comes up with a good idea, we could try adding it to the site... I was thinking about adding a section for Great Dudes in History, with a way to vote them up/down the list... maybe do the same with quotes from great dudes

I tried to sign in with my normal wiki account, and I then tried to make one on the wiki itself, but I cannot do either. Also, there are no permissions to create pages, I was wondering if you could allow people to edit and create pages?

Quote from: Jianblade on October 07, 2016, 10:13:08 PM
I tried to sign in with my normal wiki account, and I then tried to make one on the wiki itself, but I cannot do either. Also, there are no permissions to create pages, I was wondering if you could allow people to edit and create pages?

Well dude, the whole idea is to let people edit and create pages... I'm just not a master of MediaWiki... apparently the default settings disabled user creation, but I enabled it now

There may be bugs to work out... details, ya know

Quote from: The Dude Shepherd on October 07, 2016, 12:55:18 PM
...I'm hoping this will become a reference for all things Dudeist... everything from reading material, like Tao Te Ching summary/translation, to quotes and bios from Great Dudes in History... We'll have a list for any holidays, like Lebowski Fest...


If anyone wants to help get some material started before the rug pissers show up, shoot me a PM and I'll hook you up with the URL

Something a bit more searchable than the forum? Could be worthwhile as although there is a great deal of information on the forum, as a relative newcomer, I have found it difficult at times to locate information amongst the posts. While the chat serves excellently to put things in context, it can often obscure the main message for anything other than a detailed reading of the whole thread.

Quote from: Landshark on August 13, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
My question would be to what extent will we downplay TBL as part of Dudeism? Are you wanting us to cast off our robes, shave our facial hair (if any), and never touch a white russian again?

I do agree we need to expand the church. I think as priests we should consider how to take Dudeism from its present state as what some might call an e-religion and bring it in to the physical world. Something to consider would be recognition by the government as a religion. In the U.S. I believe we are required to have a congregation, a place of worship, and the congregation must contribute some amount of time to community service.

So to attain recognition we must first find a way to get people interested. I wouldn't think this step would be too hard, we have more ordained priests than most other religions do members. At this point in my ramblings I now see the importance of not making the religion about TBL. :)

Im 100% behind bringing into a physical reality. I know in Massachusetts,  you have to file corporation papers then convert to a non-profit status. But then how would that work with the already existing structure? I wanna reach out to the Dudely Lama and pick his brain on this. I think a solid PR blast, tinker around with some ethos maybe?

dudes, it comes from my living the way, the journey is rewarding, and the quest for  taking it easier on all fronts is hard to put in words.  I suggest  for cannonization, if it harshes your ease name it and fix it.

Leads, yeah. 
I'll just check with the boys down at the Crime Lab. 
They've assigned four more detectives to the case, got us working in shifts.

Moving Dudeism Forwards................

Sounds exhausting.