Moving Dudeism Forwards

[DigitalBuddha]

Another one.....

Respect your neighbor's rug. Never pee upon it.

That would pretty much be the same as being a dick!
But that is just like my opinion dude!

K.I.S.S.

I was thinking more down the lines of a greater significance and a greater meaning. Given that the dude's rug "really tied his room together," it is a symbol of his life as a whole. The rug, or it's meaning, really tied the dude's life together. Perhaps one of the reasons he went on a quest to replace it with a new and worthy rug. Ergo; don't fuck with another dude's life, that is to say "Respect your neighbor's rug. Never pee upon it."

[meekon5]

...and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org."...

That for the first time in ages made me laugh out loud.

"wikidudia.org."

Good one DB.

[DigitalBuddha]

...and had an idea of a Dudeism Wiki, in fact I registered "wikidudia.org."...

That for the first time in ages made me laugh out loud.

"wikidudia.org."

Good one DB.

[WabiSabi]

Hey I'm new and working really hard at slacking ... but I'm committed man, I'm committed. Reading the entire sixteen pages of this thread seems so un-dudely, i.e. way too much work ... but I did put time in on the beginning pages and the last few ... and I think I get it ... "gotta do something to make dudeism more real" - i.e.: acceptable in the large non-dude world.

Okay ... here's my quick thoughts:

A) There are books that define dudeism ... like the Dude De Ching and Abide (both really heavy duty IMO).

The Dude De Ching has a few millennia under it's belt to lay claim to, and that's gotta count for something.

B) Abiding is the central theme ... the main commandment if you like, or the the Prime Directive.

FWIW being a long-standing taoist abiding is what it's all about ... and what drew me in to the fold of Dudeism in the first place ... it just makes so much sense ... just common sense.

C) There's a deep history in the East to the dudieist way ... Shibumi is one way of expressing that ideal.

In dudeist thinking Shibumi, an indescribable Eastern concept, reaches an equivalent in the idea of Abide ... the circle folds, Yin become Yang.

D) Beyond the basis for Dudeism in Taoism let's remember the Dude takes action too ... he's constantly doing what he believes is right and he must, beginning with confronting the Big Lebowski ... and never giving up, letting each step lead to the next man ... very cool, very cool.

This is essentially the American ideal of Pragmatist philosophy, what is true is what is real ... and taking the next step, just the next step ... like the Harvey Keitel "Johnny Walker" commercials ... "Just Keep Walking"

So there seems to me to be a real basis beyond TBL for the tenants of Dudeism. To go forward we can begin by going backwards ...

[Andrea Da Fino]

WabiSabi, you might be new but you're surely not exactly a lighweight. I mean you talk pretty well and say wise stuff. Now let me take a look to see what this Shibumi thing is. Welcome to the bar Dude. 

[Hominid]

Hey Wabisabi dude - welcome to our little beach party...

[Rev. Ed C]

WabiSabi, welcome and thanks for your wise words

What we need is more "fresh blood" like yourself to give insightful introspection and mix up our philosophical genepool.

Kudos, and great name, btw   I've often thought that Wabi Sabi is something we can look upon as Dudeists.  Saw a great little documentary on it the other year by Louis Theroux's brother, Marcel.  If I can get my thoughts together, I think there's a Dudepaper article in it somewhere!

[cckeiser]

That's just like your opinion dude. I still say stick with the K.I.S.S. principle...the simpler the better!
Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.
My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.
Don't "christianize" dudeism....duderize the christians!
K.I.S.S. 

[Hominid]

That's just like your opinion dude. I still say stick with the K.I.S.S. principle...the simpler the better!
Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.
My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.
Don't "christianize" dudeism....duderize the christians!
K.I.S.S. 

Thanks for writing that CCK, you've help remind me of my core beliefs about all this. I agree that there may indeed be some that want to over-think and over-complicate the whole thing; that they take Dudeism (and themselves) too seriously. Which is a trait of the religious; those who like the belief more than what the belief teaches. I think it's good that this is the 'slowest growing religion in the world", which to me says that there's little to no proselytizing. So far, I've  observed that any new blood contributing to the forums come here after watching TBL one or more times, then spend a bit of time lurking in the forums, then introduce themselves like wasabi dude.  Which is the way Dudeism should propagate - by cultural osmosis. Not clever debate or convincing conversation, because words are just words. Any real grass roots movement evolves and grows because of the desire and drive of the people who join. Otherwise, it's all fluff.

And why do we need labels anyways? They're often no more than convenient clich?'s for critics to judge and mock. For me, I much prefer to make someone think about what they're thinking by something I've done by example as opposed to something clever I've said. Tickling people's ears, and providing material for philosophical masturbation used to stroke my ego, but no longer. To me, this cute "religion" we call Dudeism provides fellowship with like-minded slackers who yearn to take it easy, nothing more. Like cck says, K.I.S.S. Pragmatism rocks! Nuthin' wrong with discussion; it's great. To me, it should always facilitate and clarify the main message: abide.

 

[Rev. Ed C]

Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.

My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.

Once again, I think the point is perhaps missed a little.  There's no message of change apart from in the organic sense.  Stagnation is the death of anything that lives.  Dudeism isn't about rocks, it's about slow-growing organisms.  If you think discussion about where we're going is wrong, try taking it up with The Archdudeship whose column for the DP is usually about where we are and where we're going.

Secondly, I think you mistake, and a little insultingly the issue of the UK Dudes that frequent this forum and other official Dudely places.  TBL doesn't speak to us!  This isn't about making Dudeism all-inclusive and "acceptable to the square community", I don't know where this idea you guys have comes from?  We're not asking to build this into a major religious institution, and I'm getting tired of saying it over and over, to have the same thing thrown back in my direction.  We just want something that speaks more to us, and that's often something that's less Lebowski and more Dudeism.

So frequently Dudeism is represented without TBL, so why it always seems to be forced back into being Lebowski-centric is beyond me.  This whole discussion is supposed to be about the multitude of facets that Dudeism is supposed to exemplify, not just pointlessly quoting a movie.  Last time I quoted a joke from the movie I got a private tell asking me why I was being "nasty"... I mean, I try and fit in with general Lebowskiism, but I'm not always allowed

A quote from myself, Meekon, Rev Dog and Pirate on many separate occasions:  "I'm A Dude, not THE Dude"  Why do we all say/think this?  Because, I'll say again, TBL doesn't speak to us.  It's not our "culture and heritage" to use another Coenism.  We want to abide, but sometimes the art of KISS seems to be used to confine us.  We try and abide in our way and we're told it's not a valid way of abiding.  WTF?   Hath not a dude eyes?  Hath not a dude ears?  If you prick us, do we not get bummed?

This thread, for the umpteenth time, is not about organising ourselves, it's about growing to within the ideals of Dudeism, not perverting it.  I can't, can't stress this enough, and so many, many, many times

Don't "christianize" dudeism....duderize the christians!

Ok, well, you have your Christian hang-ups, we all know, but we don't even consider Christianity. This is the UK.  We killed our Christianity decades ago.  To keep implying that we're a bunch of Christians trying to ruin Dudeism is perhaps one of the most unfair accusations that we keep getting.  You've thrown it at me personally more times than I care to count, even back to the beginning of this discussion when I said in no uncertain terms, this is not about Christianity, it never was and never will be, why do you keep mentioning it??

CC man, I have deep respect for you, as a person, a dude and a wiseman, but you gotta let this go, and you've gotta please, please please... stop calling me Christian!   I'm an agnostic Dudeist living with an atheist Buddhist.  Most of us Brit-dudes are Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans and Buddhists, with knowledge of many faiths and not a single lick of Christian bias... All the Christianity is coming from your side of the pond, my friend.  Take the burning torches back across the water if you want to wave them anywhere, I say   We already have a Witchsmeller over this side, his name's Pope Meekon

Thanks for writing that CCK, you've help remind me of my core beliefs about all this. I agree that there may indeed be some that want to over-think and over-complicate the whole thing; that they take Dudeism (and themselves) too seriously. Which is a trait of the religious; those who like the belief more than what the belief teaches. I think it's good that this is the 'slowest growing religion in the world", which to me says that there's little to no proselytizing.

Hominid, man, much like CC, I respect you, but sometimes I worry about the things you say.  Many, many times you've pointed the finger of seriousness towards me.  Err... I don't see it myself.  If anything, my special lady complains I'm not serious enough   ... which sometimes gets me in serious trouble

If this forum isn't a place where we can toss the philosophical pigskin around, what is it?  We have a plethora of different boards for different subjects.  And, several times I've suggested to people that if they don't want to get involved in these discussions and musings they don't have to   I don't partake in discussions that doesn't interest me, so I expect that is my or any other "brit"'s lighthearted musings are not to the taste of others they'll ignore them.  If you want to get involved and discuss, please do, but please don't complain that we're too serious.  You don't get the joke, swap channels and find a sitcom more to your liking

Sometimes I worry I oversmily... sometimes I worry I undersmily because they all get ignored.  Is there one for a friendly ogre?

Not looking to ruffle feathers here... just speaking my corner, because once again, I feel a little boxed into it

[Andrea Da Fino]

Well, it is no news that USA and Europe are different in many respects and so this applies to religion too. It might be that we in Europe have been forced by the Catholic Church to believe that a religion should go a bit deeper than just looking at a movie and that having a bunch of simple tenets could be cool. Well, who knows, we don't have preachers on tv and we don't have the Bible Belt so we'll probably never know or understand these kind of cultural diversities.

The problem is that imdo if we go on just sticking to the movie we'll remain a kind of a bunch of amateurs in the eyes of others. We are not even able to explain what Dudeism is. And I think that saying Abide and Fuck let's go bowling isn't enough. It might be that in Europe we're complicated but that's how it goes. I don't want Dudeism to be a wake and bake club.

If in USA Dudeism is Lebowskiism that's fine and cool but in Europe we probably need something more. Let's imagine what dudes from the East would need.

If we think Dudeism is a cool religion and not a joke or just a way to justify stoned-living I think we have to find a way to show others wtf we're talking about. This doesn't mean to evangelize people but just to have a clear message; and saying Abide is not enough. Probably it all goes down to the fact that some of us see Dudeism as a real religion with a message which can make the world a better place and some do not. Which is anyway cool because Dudeism embraces everything that is dude, but what does this mean?

I know some of you will hate me for this but there are two religions who have spread because they have a clear yet simple message: one is Christianity and the other is Jedism. JCD had one clear message and that was it. Jedism  came out of a movie too yet it has more followers of Dudeism because of its clear message, and coolness. Also both of them are not usually identified with stoned-living which in many cultures is still been seen as such a not so good way of living.

It might be that we too have a simple message but it's not clear at all, at least for European standards. And if we don't change something we'll remain like a bunch of amateurs in the religious field and the world will remain as it is now, an uptight world.

I love Dudeism and I think dudes are the coolest persons on Earth but we must go over the Big Lebowski and get to that clear and simple message. Ok, it might be that I'm flawed because for me the ideal dude is not the Dude but a drunken Po, or a Shaolin Monk who masters the art of Drunken Monkey Kung Fu.


Anyway it might be that Dudeism is seen differently on different sides of the ocean but we should definitely go over this and especially over fighting with other religions, and this is something which surely applies to me too. But if this is not at all possible well, it means that Dudeism will be one thing for USA dudes and another one for European dudes. At the end our bowling ball is made up of two colors right? The Yin and Yang thing. Let's just hope that if it will happens that Dudeism arrives for real in the East they don't want to put another color.

Everything is written in my dudely opinion dudes, no harm intended. 

[Rev. Ed C]

AF, you always have been, and always will be, one of my closest compeers

Although remaining "a kind of a bunch of amateurs in the eyes of others" doesn't really bother me.  I just want Dudeism to speak for me.  Either people are with me, or they're not.  As long as they're not actively against me, it's all good   And if they are, fuck'em

Dudeism should not be something we all have to fall in line with, Dudeism should fall in line with us.  That's my message, and I'm sticking with it.  If I HAVE to be a Lebowskiist, I might as well go to a pre-established religion.  Dudeism is personal, we all abide in our own way.  My main point, always, is that Dudeism should speak to everyone with this core value, and that Lebowski can be a part of it, for those who feel it, but it should not be at the core.

The core SHOULD be kept simple.  Simple and universal.  TBL should be left a satellite, like Buddhists and Taoism and JCD and all the other things we want to throw into it.  That was the idea I wanted to work on.  How to we reach a core, like the tennets of Dudeism/Abideism that is purely simple and not pushed in one direction or the other.

If we have a simple core that defines a dude, all else is gravy.  Be you a Lebowskiists or whatever.  If it's decided that Lebowski IS the core of Dudeism, then I think this whole thing says little of any merit outside of Lebowskifest... in which case, why is this forum even here, why not just move all the discussions to a Lebowski site? :/

That may, of course, just be my opinion

[Andrea Da Fino]

The same for me dude, you know, like Irish Monks. 

And I agree with all the rest you've said, actually the satellite thing imdo expresses perfectly our point of view.

Mark it 8. 

[meekon5]

Just an observation here, but it seems to me most US dudes are fine with Dudeism as it is; along with all the Lebowski mixed in. It is mostly U.K. dudes that have a problem with all the Lebowski shit and would like to turn Dudeism into a "Real" religion.

My $0.02...Dudeism already is a real religion...it doesn't need to change to be more acceptable by the uptight straight community...we just need to change the perception of the straight community into accepting something that is Not their daddy's religion.

I suppose I am now going to look like another European Dude jumping up and down at this.

The major reason I was initially attracted to Dudeism was it's connection to Taoism, not the TBL.

Also a lot of the far more "serious" spiritual Dudes don't post to the forum any more (and a lot of them were US members), it's a pure co-incidence that the heavier more "serious" of us that are left happen to be UK, or European residence.

As for

A) There are books that define dudeism ... like the Dude De Ching and Abide (both really heavy duty IMO).

I personally would avoid saying these are definitive.

The old zen "finger and the moon" problem applies here.

Please don't confuse what is in essence pointing towards what Dudeism is with what Dudeism actually is.

The Dude De Ching has a few millennia under it's belt to lay claim to, and that's gotta count for something.

The Tao Te Ching has millenia under it's belt, the Dude De Ching is only a few years old, and again is not definitive just instructional.

B) Abiding is the central theme ... the main commandment if you like, or the the Prime Directive.

Here again "commandment" and "directive" don't sit well with me as Dudeist concepts. suggestion and proposition.

I am a Dudeist because I abide, I did not abide to become a Dudeist, I abide because I abide.

I'm very interested in your next bit (BTW welcome to our little beach comunity)

FWIW being a long-standing taoist abiding is what it's all about ... and what drew me in to the fold of Dudeism in the first place ... it just makes so much sense ... just common sense.

C) There's a deep history in the East to the dudieist way ... Shibumi is one way of expressing that ideal.

In dudeist thinking Shibumi, an indescribable Eastern concept, reaches an equivalent in the idea of Abide ... the circle folds, Yin become Yang.

But then you spoil it  a bit.

D) Beyond the basis for Dudeism in Taoism let's remember the Dude takes action too ... he's constantly doing what he believes is right and he must, beginning with confronting the Big Lebowski ... and never giving up, letting each step lead to the next man ... very cool, very cool.

This is essentially the American ideal of Pragmatist philosophy, what is true is what is real ... and taking the next step, just the next step ... like the Harvey Keitel "Johnny Walker" commercials ... "Just Keep Walking"

The reason I don't agree with this bit is more estoric, I can't agree with the statement

"what is true is what is real"

Believing that each person has their own reality, based on Buddhist/Taoist ideas and Michel Foucault (Madness and Society, Madness and Civilization).

What is real may not (and usually is not) exactly the same for everyone, our consensus does not extrapolate to particulars when looking at reality.

I personally see no problem with my holding Dudeist, Taoist, and Pagan points of view.

So there seems to me to be a real basis beyond TBL for the tenants of Dudeism. To go forward we can begin by going backwards ...

I still have to say I am against trying to pin down what Dudeism is and is not beyond the general vagaries that exist at present.

I'm also an Erisian so stand against organisation and structure where ever possible.

There was no "plan" for the tree to grow the way it did, it just did.

The Human condition is so frightening that we as individuals apply rules where there are none, in an attempt to "see" order and feel more comfortable with our lives.

All IMDO of course, and as I said half way up the spiel, Welcome WabiSabi any rug in the place, bars over there.

Perhaps your first post was to a rather hot topic

[cckeiser]

Sorry Rev Ed C, I did not mean "christian" as in the Christian Religion, but in a christian manner with Popes and Bishops and Dogma and all the other rules and sacraments and other shit that come along with christianizing a philosophy or belief.
I was Not accusing you of being a Christian...god forbid! , but of thinking in a "christianizing" way.
From your last post/reply I can see I was mistaken and actually agree with you here:

AF, you always have been, and always will be, one of my closest compeers

Although remaining "a kind of a bunch of amateurs in the eyes of others" doesn't really bother me.  I just want Dudeism to speak for me.  Either people are with me, or they're not.  As long as they're not actively against me, it's all good   And if they are, fuck'em

Dudeism should not be something we all have to fall in line with, Dudeism should fall in line with us.  That's my message, and I'm sticking with it.  If I HAVE to be a Lebowskiist, I might as well go to a pre-established religion.  Dudeism is personal, we all abide in our own way.  My main point, always, is that Dudeism should speak to everyone with this core value, and that Lebowski can be a part of it, for those who feel it, but it should not be at the core.

The core SHOULD be kept simple.  Simple and universal.  TBL should be left a satellite, like Buddhists and Taoism and JCD and all the other things we want to throw into it.  That was the idea I wanted to work on.  How to we reach a core, like the tennets of Dudeism/Abideism that is purely simple and not pushed in one direction or the other.

If we have a simple core that defines a dude, all else is gravy.  Be you a Lebowskiists or whatever.  If it's decided that Lebowski IS the core of Dudeism, then I think this whole thing says little of any merit outside of Lebowskifest... in which case, why is this forum even here, why not just move all the discussions to a Lebowski site? :/

That may, of course, just be my opinion

I too do prefer the Tao to the Lebowski, but I have no desire to separate them. I am just against a christianize type of Dogma with all the shit that that would require.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And as a note to the new dudes here, yeah it says I am an administrator here, but I have no special authority more than any other dude here...I am just a janitor. The Admin power was only to allow me to clean up the spam and do board maintenance when this old software goes funky on us.
Everything I write is just like my opinion man.