Jeff Dowd and the Seattle Seven

[TrapperDude]

Clear and perspicacious. Thank you very much! Somehow I missed out on the movie and only saw it the first time about a month ago, but I identify--been dabbling with Buddhism and Taoism for 30 years. Just from reading here (I found the dudeism site over a year ago, before seeing the movie), I thought I had a fair handle on Dudeism (and I even get the idea of convenient label), but not on the other ism. Thanks!

[forumdude]

Serious question from a real n00b: what IS the difference between Lebowskism and Dudeism? Thanks!

The Lebowskist is a devotee of the film "The Big Lebowski", they spend a lot of the time quoting the film (look at the facebook group for instance), but, to quote the zen, they are empty gourds making a lot of noise but little sense.

The Dudeist is trying to follow a path that is a synthesis of Taoism and the Slacker ethic, as exemplified by the example of the character the Dude (Based on Jeff Dowd) from the Coen Brothers film "The Big Lebowski". It is a mystical tradition based on none action (takin her easy), using terminology from the film to convey it's ideas.

A common idea for Dudeists is not so much they are converted to the religion but it is a convenient label by which others (who are bothered about such things) can use to categorise them. In many of the threads discussing why we are Dudeists many of us can be found saying it is the best fit to how we are, and that we were actually Dudeists before we actually knew what the religion is.

oh and Da Stranger try not to take things too seriously. It's difficult to portray thetounge in cheeck attitude when all this is just in text.

Nice to have astute Dudeist apologists out there helping to spread (and clarify) the Dude word for all us sinners out there. Thankee Meekon.

[Da Stranger]

forumdude, you support meekon5's statement that people who quote the movie are "empty gourds making a lot noise but little sense"??

If Dudeism is the same as Taoism, then what the fuck do we need Dudeism for?
Who has use for a copycat religion?

To me Dudeism IS the fucking movie, man.

The great thing about the movie is that you can find a response to almost every situation in life, and its not an empty response, it has meaning, to those who know the movie, maybe it can be a bit cryptic, but its certainly NOT "a lot of noise but little sense" and if a dude loves to express himorherself by quoting the movie, that don't make himorher "an empty gourd".

I thought meekon5 sounded like a fucking cleft asshole when he said that. No offense meekon5, don't take it personally or seriously dude.

[Rev. Gary (revgms)]

"Is the some sort of Eastern thing?"

"I'm sorry, I wasn't listening"

"the Dude abides man"

LOL

[Da Stranger]

and lets not forget, lets not forget, the splintering down into two....the once unified Dudeism...in a subtle but deadly forum post....well, thats ain't legal either.

[Rev. Gary (revgms)]

Actually, "nothings fucked here Dude!"

Lebowskists are fans of the movie, they are not looking for deeper meaning in it, if they start to, then they enter the realm of Dudeism. Again, we dig their style, but if you are applying spirituality to TBL, then by default you are Dudeist.

The Jedi talk about the Star Wars saga, but they are not all SW fanboys, and fanboys can be Jedi.

There are a lot of ins an outs to keep straight here mang. I suggest limbering up, and pass the J of unification.

[meekon5]

...If Dudeism is the same as Taoism, then what the fuck do we need Dudeism for?
Who has use for a copycat religion?...

Miss quoting me there

...The Dudeist is trying to follow a path that is a synthesis of Taoism and the Slacker ethic...

And don't get me wrong I completely agree with revgms

..Lebowskists are fans of the movie, they are not looking for deeper meaning in it, if they start to, then they enter the realm of Dudeism. Again, we dig their style, but if you are applying spirituality to TBL, then by default you are Dudeist...

And Da Stranger please stop slinging insults around it undermines your statements

I thought meekon5 sounded like a fucking cleft asshole when he said that. No offense meekon5, don't take it personally or seriously dude.

If you can't discuss your point of view with out it why bother? I'm not against profanity, but you had me interested in your point of view until you did that. All you did there was insult me, then pretend you hadn't, which just annoyed me and stopped me taking your point of view seriously.

And that's the whole point of all of this forum as far as I'm concerned. I'm not trying to be divisive I'm just expressing why I'm here and the way I see things.

I don't claim to be any more right than anyone else here. I can only say it as I see it.

We test our religion by discussing it amongst ourselves and with others.

By the way I was just re-iterating my version of The take it easy manifesto, where it actually says

Myth (the stories that work on several levels and offer a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and humanity?s place in it): The Big Lebowski is our founding myth; just as the Christian Gospels, based on the Jesus of history, provide a portrait of the mythical Christ of faith who ?died for all us sinners,? the film, based on the Dude of history (Jeff Dowd), presents the mythical Dude of film (Jeff Bridges) who ?takes it easy for all us sinners.?

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

..To me Dudeism IS the fucking movie, man...

Which makes you a Lebowskist, so what? For me you've missed a beautiful point to the whole religion.

But then for me I think other religions suffer from this syndrome as well. How many people do we all know who can quote their holy cannon chapter and verse, but don't seem to have understood the real message the text was conveying, and I mean that across many of the major religions from Islam , through Christianity, to even Buddhism.

Essentially I think the problem here is the text (the film) is not important to me, but the way I live my life as a Dudeist is (using the text as an example, not the be all and end all of my Dudeism).

Where as you find your spirituality in the text.

Different paths to the same destination.

Finally it's difficult to get how serious people are here because it's just text (emoticons don't really help). I spend a lot of time thinking about this shit, but still try to post with an edge of humour, I understand thats British humour which is sometimes a bit difficult to get a handle on.

(and to be completely puerile if "Dudeism IS the fucking movie" then why were you going on about Jeff Dowd in the first place, he's not in the movie.)

[Da Stranger]

Ok I won't sling insults if you won't keep on with this 'holier than thou' elitist attitude....

Which makes you a Lebowskist, so what? For me you've missed a beautiful point to the whole religion. Grin

But then for me I think other religions suffer from this syndrome as well. How many people do we all know who can quote their holy cannon chapter and verse, but don't seem to have understood the real message the text was conveying, and I mean that across many of the major religions from Islam , through Christianity, to even Buddhism.

How can you possibly know how deep I see into the film or the religion or what meaning(s) I take from all, both, or any single part of it? Are you talking about me? Or are you talking about yourself Dude?

Over the Line!

[Rev. Gary (revgms)]

It is my understanding that Dudeism is more based on Taoism than the movie, and Taoism is based on the ancient wisdom of abiding. i do not even think it is required to have seen the movie to be a Dudeist.

In fact when I ordained, I had only watched the movie once, back when it hit DVD 9-10 years ago. I had been looking to find a convenient label for others to grasp my point of view. Then I found Dudeism, but I pondered for a year before I ordained, I lurked here and read the Dudespaper and anything written about Dudeism. I also researched Taoism, and started making contacts with different Sanghas. The thing is, I am not Buddhist, even though I identify with them very much, still not quite right, still did not fit perfectly. To many rules.

Went to Zen sittings thinking they would be Dude-like, but even they have too much rigidety for my taste. I say let the meditatioin flow, no need to get up and walk around. Kept thinking if we are gonna just walk, we should walk out to my truck and grab a J.

With the lack of a "bible" of our own, these problems will arise from time to time. However, I think most Dudeists would agree that Dudeism is based on Taoism, and not the movie. More accurately, it is based on abiding, in the Tao understanding, and that the charactor the Dude, personified a being who abides.

Ooops, brb

[meekon5]

Ok I won't sling insults if you won't keep on with this 'holier than thou' elitist attitude....

Which makes you a Lebowskist, so what? For me you've missed a beautiful point to the whole religion. Grin

But then for me I think other religions suffer from this syndrome as well. How many people do we all know who can quote their holy cannon chapter and verse, but don't seem to have understood the real message the text was conveying, and I mean that across many of the major religions from Islam , through Christianity, to even Buddhism.

How can you possibly know how deep I see into the film or the religion or what meaning(s) I take from all, both, or any single part of it? Are you talking about me? Or are you talking about yourself Dude?

Over the Line!

Again missed the humour.

As for "'holier than thou' elitist attitude" sorry if thats the way it's coming across but that's not how it's written.

Your reading it with far more aggression and far more personally than it's meant.

Thanks again to revgms who has vocalised things particularly well.

"How can you possibly know how deep I see into the film or the religion"

Mate your  religion is your religion.

It just seemed you were telling me what my religion was.

Who's line and who is doing the stepping?

[forumdude]

forumdude, you support meekon5's statement that people who quote the movie are "empty gourds making a lot noise but little sense"??

If Dudeism is the same as Taoism, then what the fuck do we need Dudeism for?
Who has use for a copycat religion?

To me Dudeism IS the fucking movie, man.

The great thing about the movie is that you can find a response to almost every situation in life, and its not an empty response, it has meaning, to those who know the movie, maybe it can be a bit cryptic, but its certainly NOT "a lot of noise but little sense" and if a dude loves to express himorherself by quoting the movie, that don't make himorher "an empty gourd".

I thought meekon5 sounded like a fucking cleft asshole when he said that. No offense meekon5, don't take it personally or seriously dude.

there's nothing wrong with being an empty gourd. in fact, being an empty gourd is a central tenet of Taoism. However, the gourd must be filled and re-emptied from time to time to have value. i don't think that meekon meant it in a mean way - he just meant that there's more than just the gourd and the emptiness, and many people don't realize that. there's a great deal of pith which the so-called "Lebowskists" miss out on if they only quote the movie but don't look any deeper than the words. You're right that the quotes are replete with meaning. Not everyone realizes this consciously. And that's cool. That's cool. The point is that the movie is bottomless, just as the Tao is bottomless. They are both avenues (or ways) towards the same thing.

We need Dudeism for two reasons: 1) to help people find the Tao, because the Tao was written a long time ago and in a purposefully vague idiom that made it hard to understand and 2) because most people who say they are Taoists these days (including those in China) are following a debased (just an opinion) form of Taoism that spends all its energy cataloging superstitious beliefs and trying to master metaphysical techniques (see Homes Welch's  "The Parting of the Way" for more on this).

I don't know why people keep reading Meekon's posts as aggressive or insulting. Maybe it's because he's from England. They have a different parlance, maybe more direct and persnickety than some yanks are accustomed to.

[meekon5]

...I don't know why people keep reading Meekon's posts as aggressive or insulting. Maybe it's because he's from England. They have a different parlance, maybe more direct and persnickety than some yanks are accustomed to.

Actually I have had this before. In a past job the Americans actually complained that I was rude to them.

I put it down to a mixture of being dyslexic (not diagnosed until I was 29) and working in ICT.

I construct the language a different way because I have had to learn how to use it as a foreign tongue.

There is also the fact that I am sarcastic down to a genetic level. I can't help it, and everyone that knows me just lets it pass, and realises that I am hardly ever serious (I am the laughing Buddha).

[forumdude]

you're the laughing duddha, meekon. the preferred nomenclature.

the other thing is that many religious traditions grow out of pre-existing ones. buddhism and jainism grew out of hinduism, christianity and islam grew out of judaism and zoroastrianism. zen and tibetan buddhism grew out of traditional buddhism, etc. etc. they didn't copy those religions, they expanded upon them and edited them.

dudeism is not taoism, per se. it's rooted in taoism but is presently in its nascent stages of development. as it slowly develops canons and texts it will hopefully expand and clarify. and then some day it might get full of shit and fascist too and need a new sect to break away from it in order to recapture the essential message. but hopefully that will be a lot further on down the trail.

the fun thing is watching it take shape on its own. it's a bit like we're all stumbling around together in the dark trying to find the shape of something we know to be there but haven't totally identified yet. i'm pretty stoked the way people seem to implicitly "get it" though.

i think there's a hope among the "dudeists" that the "lebowskists" will gradually come to appreciate the depth and breadth of the movie and also see that it fits into an even deeper and wider whole.

wow, that last sentence sounded like something out of a jackie treehorn movie.

[meekon5]

Perhaps   if   I   punctuated   every   post   like   this   people   wouldn't   take   it   quite   so   personally  .

(actually that gives me a headache just trying to read it)

[Da Stranger]

Ok, well that is, even if your the top priest forumdude, still just your opinion.

Now I thought I was a Dudeist, but I guess I am being told that I am a Lebowskist.
I did not know that.

So....what makes a Dudeist, Mr. Lebowski?

Or more specifically....what makes you define me as a Lebowskist?

....And when exactly (an actual date) was Dudeism sanctified into being?
Because I cannot believe it was BEFORE the movie came out!
And I cannot believe that the religion of Dudeism would exist WITHOUT the movie.

Therefore, even if a Dude posts to the forum using mostly quotes from the movie, as many do, how can you judge who is a Dudeist and who is a Lebowskist? And how can you possibly know who sees deeper meaning in the movie and who doesn't?

And then again, forumdude, dont take any offense, but it could all be a fake, man.
This whole thing could just be like Lenin said, as long as you can market your wares and feed the monkey. And then there is, of course, the potsmokers hope that they can legally smoke a J without fear of the reactionaries by claiming religious purposes.

I'm not upset, Dudes, I never was upset! But I'm not gonna let an 8 stand when its really a 0. I mean, Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I wrong?