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Author Topic: My opinion  (Read 24899 times)

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greatspiritmonk

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My opinion
« on: August 20, 2009, 02:32:46 AM »
Fuching AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

And A+ for having left the original version. Lao Tzu would be 100% with you.
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

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sufidude

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 07:48:04 AM »
I've got an un-copywritten translation of some early Upanishads. Anyone think they deserve the dude interpretation?
Smokin' and bowlin' in the LBC...

greatspiritmonk

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 01:38:12 AM »
Count on my vote. A population 5000 years old I guess has some good insights. But aren't they too long?
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

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sufidude

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 02:23:28 PM »
Count on my vote. A population 5000 years old I guess has some good insights. But aren't they too long?

Shankara compiled what he considered to be the twelve most authentic (and ancient) in a single volume called The Breath many years ago. I have a six dollar Signet Classics version thats under 200 pages. If I did I'd start with Katha(the oldest) and do some of the shortest ones from there.
Smokin' and bowlin' in the LBC...

greatspiritmonk

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 01:19:27 AM »
Ok man, throw the ball.  8)
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

In Dudeness we abide.

meekon5

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 08:47:17 AM »
If we're co-opting Taoist literature how about a Dudeist I Ching?

I use to do modern interpretations of the Wilhelm translation calling it "Tea With Mr Ching".
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 07:50:56 AM by meekon5 »
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

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greatspiritmonk

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2009, 01:41:45 AM »
Far out Dude. If well done it could be a good way to feed the monkey. Just keep it as simple as possible. Dude I Ching. Great idea man.  8)
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

In Dudeness we abide.

meekon5

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 08:34:04 AM »
I've got a few translations of the I Ching. If I leave the Confusious comentaries out for the moment.

Unfortunatly I can't do it from the original Chinese.

Damn I think I've made a rod for my own back here.  ;D
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

Where are you Dude? Place your pin @ http://tinyurl.com/dudemap

greatspiritmonk

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2009, 01:48:10 AM »
Oh yes man. Oh yes.  ;D
But if you make a good job who knows, it could be a companion to the Tao Dude Ching. You know, official material. Great stuff man.
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

In Dudeness we abide.

meekon5

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2009, 05:46:09 AM »
OK, I've already started. I've done a simple conversion of the coin method of pattern creation using oat soda tops.

Is this the point when I should perhaps begin another thread?
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

Where are you Dude? Place your pin @ http://tinyurl.com/dudemap

greatspiritmonk

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2009, 06:16:36 AM »
Quite cool man! Oat soda tops is a great idea. Very cool indeed.

Do what you wish, I'll follow your work anyway. Or anythread.  8)
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

In Dudeness we abide.

Philthy

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2009, 01:17:37 PM »
To be honest, I was somewhat disappointed.  I feel as though a lot of times the original message was lost in an effort to quote the movie where it didn't always feel appropriate.  Granted, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but this is my strong impression thus far.  Granted, some were fairly well done, or at least most of the piece, but some things just stuck out like the Dude in a beach community.  For instance, in the first chapter:

Tao Te Ching: 1. Tao
The Tao that can be known is not Tao.
The substance of the World is only a name for Tao.
Tao is all that exists and may exist;
The World is only a map of what exists and may exist.

Dudeness that can be known is not Dude.
The substance of the World is only a name for what Abides.
The tumbling of tumbleweeds is all that exists and may exist;
The rug is only a fabrication which ties the room together.

These lines work very well together.  The only minor flaw in these lines is that Tao is a word used throughout the writing to represent a concept, and it is always called Tao to avoid confusion.  But here, we have Tao appear on two separate lines translated as "Dudeness, Dude, and Abides."  This creates a conflict in the ability to follow what is being said, because the object (being Tao, or Dudeness) continues to change it's label.  If I had you call me Fred, and other people called me Bob and Joe, you wouldn't know who the fuck they're talking about.  The Tao te Ching uses the word Tao as a concrete name for a non-concrete idea, but for continuity's sake.  This way, over the course of the first several chapters, the reader becomes familiar with the idea of Tao, and thus it can begin to be referred to by other labels, if necessary.  Hence I suggest this, my fellow dudes: perhaps a term should be agreed upon to take the place of Tao for the most part, something concrete, my suggestion being "Dude."  The reader (presumably being unfamiliar with the heart of the original teachings) will thus have an easier time grasping the idea of Dude.  This subtly changes the first few lines to:

The Dude that can be known is not Dude.
The substance of the World is only a name for Dude.
The tumbling of tumbleweeds is all that exists and may exist;
The rug is only a fabrication which ties the room together.

Moving on:

Tao Te Ching:
One experiences without Self to sense the World,
And experiences with Self to understand the World.

Dude Te Ching:
One experiences without being uptight, or enters a World of Pain,
And investigates complicated cases in order to understand the World.

My interpretation of this line of the Tao te Ching is that it is telling you to put yourself aside in order to experience the world.  Dispose of preconceived notions, because they'll affect your perceptions, and thus influence your opinion about the subject in question.  Therefore, the first part of the Dude interpretation is dead on, "One experiences truth without being uptight," but perhaps the line should instead end there, without a second statement (which the original lacks as well).  The second line here is very close, again, but still feels off to me.  Because the Tao te Ching encourages exploration of the self and comparison of one's experiences to the new information gained from selfless perception.  This means an investigation of the self, so perhaps the second Dude line should read, "And investigates complicated cases within a limber mind to understand the world."

Moving on.

Tao:
The two experiences are the same within Tao;
They are distinct only within the World.
Neither experience conveys Tao
Which is infinitely greater and more subtle than the World.

Dude:
The Dude digs the style of the Stranger, and the Stranger, the style of the Dude;
They are distinct only in front of the bar.
Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes he eats you
Which is infinitely greater and more subtle than the fucking TOE!

The first two lines here are pretty spot on.  Something doesn't sit 100% with me, but it's close enough for this thought.  But the third line is waaaaaay out of whack: Neither experience conveys Tao vs Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes he eats you.  The original line is continuing from the previous statement of experiences... while neither your selfless perceptions nor your comparisons of them to your experiences is the entirety of the truth, (entering the 4th line now) it's kind of a piece of it, because the truth is huge and big and mysterious-like.  The third line of the Dude version, "Sometimes you eat the bar..." is very much a "win some lose some" statement, and the fourth doesn't connect to it so well.  Trying to think of a better interpretation, but sadly I must eat before having to go be employed, sir.  I'll return later and finish this statement.

And please remember, this is just like, my opinion, man.  No hard feelings toward anybody.  Take er easy
Takin er easy fer all us sinners.

forumdude

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2009, 12:58:15 AM »
Thanks for the input, man. We'll seriously consider everything you're saying.

But one thing we'd like to bring to light is that the Tao Dude Ching is not meant to exactly dupilicate the verses of the Tao Te Ching. Furthermore, yes, we take some liberties for the sake of humor or playfulness, an attitude which the Tao Te Ching places central to the understanding of Tao.

Also, this is just one English translation of the Tao Te Ching - in reality several versions were consulted in fashioning the verses of the Tao Dude Ching, most particularly the new translation by Ames and Hall; in many cases The Editorial We used their "explanations" of the meaning of the verses to form a baseline with which to work from. often we deviated from the actual text as written in order to better elucidate the underlying meaning of the verse as they explain it.

For instance, where you suggest substituting

The Dude that can be known is not Dude.
The substance of the World is only a name for Dude.
The tumbling of tumbleweeds is all that exists and may exist;
The rug is only a fabrication which ties the room together.


for

Dudeness that can be known is not Dude.
The substance of the World is only a name for what Abides.
The tumbling of tumbleweeds is all that exists and may exist;
The rug is only a fabrication which ties the room together.


...we've offered up a new twist - that the human mind gives names only to the aspects of tao that are concrete, that seem to "abide" long enough for us to identify them as categories. To maintain integrity in a shifting world, one must have the characteristic of "abiding."

Of course, here the word "abide" deviates from the way we've used it in the rest of the Tao Dude Ching. Mostly we use it to define a state of mind that is calm and flows with the rest of the world rather than fights against it, which is a form of "maintaining shape" as well, of course. but in this particular verse we use the "maintaining shape" idea more strictly. we recognize that things which "abide" are things which can be identified and used as foundations for thought, but should never be confused with absolute truth. One thing about "abide" - it is such a holy Dudeist word that it is very hard to pigeonhole. Like the word "dude", it's a loosely-defined but profound concept, just as "God" or "spirit" is in other religions.

Then when you point out that

Tao Te Ching:
One experiences without Self to sense the World,
And experiences with Self to understand the World.

Dude Te Ching:
One experiences without being uptight, or enters a World of Pain,
And investigates complicated cases in order to understand the World.


overlooks the notion that yourself and the world are interlinked - by investigating complicated cases in the world we also investigate complicated cases within ourselves. it is impossible to separate the two. this is a fundamentally buddhist concept and one which has echoes in taoism as well. so while i agree that your suggestion "And investigates complicated cases within a limber mind to understand the world" may be more accurate in one way, it's not necessary and furthermore makes the line read a bit too long.

On the third one you're absolutely right - it deviates from the original message of the Tao. But not by much. The point of this initial verse is to set the stage for the whole Tao Dude Ching - by showing that it will be in many ways a satire, and in many ways a serious piece of investigation. The third and fourth lines point out essential Taoist/Dudeist truths (life has ups and downs, and don't get hung up on either the small stuff (toes) or huge ideas (TOE = theory of everything)).

I think where we'd like to see some criticism of the Tao Dude Ching is in pointing out ways we might have improved the elucidation of the message - via a better line from the film, via a better-constructed or funnier sentence, or via some other insight that had not occurred to us. The point of The Tao Dude Ching is to both make the Tao more clear (we recommend you read Ames and Hall, as well as "The Parting of the Way" by Holmes Welch) and pragmatic, and also to make it as funny as possible without obscuring the message and inspiration.

That said, any criticism is welcome, including criticism of rebuttals like the one i've given here. The more ideas, the dudelier. I'm grateful to Philthy for weighing in on the matter.


« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 01:07:21 AM by forumdude »
I'll tell you what I'm blathering about...

greatspiritmonk

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2009, 01:07:41 AM »
Are we splitting hairs here?  ;D

I have a couple of books on Tao Te Ching and they have some differences, just like Tao Dude Ching using quotes and concepts from the movie has differences from the original version. I saw it as a "funny" adaptation, and that's why the editorial we wrote it along with the original. I read the original for the concept explained and the Dude for fun.

Am I wrong?

Btw Philthy you seem to have quite a good grasp of the book. Quite cool.  8)
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.

In Dudeness we abide.

meekon5

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Re: My opinion
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 07:21:03 AM »
Any time you start to discuss a work like the Tao Te Ching even the original text in Chinese is hotly debated amongst scholars, let alone the translations. I’m led to believe the subtlety of the original transcript used characters that were so well written they themselves could be interpreted a number of ways.

Like many I have a number of translations of the text. My favourite interpretation of all thing Taoist is 'The Tao of Pooh”. It injects that all important dose of humour into the subject very well.

I personally think Lao Tzu was chuckling away to himself as he rode his oxen away from civilization having left the last guard of the last gate with his transcript, thinking something along the lines of "That'll mess with their noodles!".

I think it’s only right that the Tao Dude Ching should also engender good debate.

I think such discussion is important to ensure we don’t become “hide bound” and dogmatic.
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and  that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
Stephen Hawking

Where are you Dude? Place your pin @ http://tinyurl.com/dudemap

 

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