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Author Topic: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances  (Read 21344 times)

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Brother D

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2016, 04:22:41 PM »
I'm one of those old fools that believes people are inherently good and looking for contentment in misery is a good thing. It gives us something to hope for and a small amount of peace of mind.

I'm gonna have to watch more of this saxondale, bikerdude, good stuff there, mang.

SagebrushSage

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2016, 04:41:24 PM »
How's Life? Taking forever.

*grin* Yep. I'm Herb these days lol. Love it!

Man, I wish I was named "Herb." What a perfect name for a stoner.

I haven't had a J in so freakin' long. Ugh. I wish society would just chill and let me do what I want. Weed prohibitionists are a bunch of nihilists and reactionaries.

jgiffin

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2016, 05:18:17 PM »
It's worse than that, man, we're being governed by the love children of grade-school student council members and tyrannical corporate overlords.

BikerDude

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2016, 05:34:11 PM »
I'm one of those old fools that believes people are inherently good and looking for contentment in misery is a good thing. It gives us something to hope for and a small amount of peace of mind.

I'm gonna have to watch more of this saxondale, bikerdude, good stuff there, mang.

Is that some kind of eastern thing?
I'm an old fool who thinks misery sucks.

I think individuals are good.
But centuries of colonialism, oppression racism etc leads me to believe that there seems to just maybe be a tiny bit of a trend there when it comes to groups of people. Call me crazy but it sort of looks like even in a relatively civilized country like this there isn't any shortage of hate. Let's see who got killed this century MLK, Kennedy, Bobby yadda yadda. Before that Lincoln. Seeing a trend here?  The Tuskegee experiments? It goes on and on. Has it gotten better?
We are set to elect or almost elect Trump.

Everywhere it looks like every group that constitutes a minority ends up at least on the short end of the stick and usually worse. Doesn't matter where. You'd almost think that power is more influential than the better angels of our nature.
Yeah hope springs eternal and that's a beautiful thing but as for me I'd council people to organize around our better angels and be ready to kick ass.

That is to say that taken in aggregate groups of people seem to generally end up being a teeny bit on the cranky side. And the ones who aren't end up downtrodden.
It's a generalization but it's a bit hard to miss a trend. I don't think it's a passing fad.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 05:48:15 PM by BikerDude »

Out here we are all his children

Brother D

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2016, 05:50:55 PM »
It's true, it's not a passing fad, at least not from where I'm standing. But enough of those minorities get together and you have a revolution.

And yes, misery doth sucketh, but letting it warsh over you, keeps you down in the dumps. I don't think anyone really wants to be unhappy, I mean, what's the point?
You can't be worried about that shit, life goes on, man.

jgiffin

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2016, 06:28:02 PM »
The oppression of the minority thing, while a historical reality and though it inevitably remains as to given individuals, has largely been overcome in the aggregate. Minority status is now, all things being equal, a boon and not a detriment. You can argue certain minorities find themselves disadvantaged from the start. And fair enough. But, even in those circumstances, the minority will generally be advantaged in comparison to a white person born into the same situation.

Okay, that was way more vague and generalistic than intended. Let's put some meat on it. A black kid born into a poor family is going to get advantages that a white kid born across the street to similarly poor parents won't get. Higher education quotas (call it what you will but it's essentially a quota). Specialized scholarships. Minority loan benefits. The perceived benefit of having a critical mass of minority employees. Qualification of minority (and women) owned businesses, particularly in the arena of government contracts. It's a lot. It just is.

I dunno, man. I just don't see how we destroy the last vestiges of prejudice by being prejudicial.

BikerDude

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2016, 08:35:22 PM »
The oppression of the minority thing, while a historical reality and though it inevitably remains as to given individuals, has largely been overcome in the aggregate. Minority status is now, all things being equal, a boon and not a detriment. You can argue certain minorities find themselves disadvantaged from the start. And fair enough. But, even in those circumstances, the minority will generally be advantaged in comparison to a white person born into the same situation.

Okay, that was way more vague and generalistic than intended. Let's put some meat on it. A black kid born into a poor family is going to get advantages that a white kid born across the street to similarly poor parents won't get. Higher education quotas (call it what you will but it's essentially a quota). Specialized scholarships. Minority loan benefits. The perceived benefit of having a critical mass of minority employees. Qualification of minority (and women) owned businesses, particularly in the arena of government contracts. It's a lot. It just is.

I dunno, man. I just don't see how we destroy the last vestiges of prejudice by being prejudicial.

So then can I assume that you attribute the disparity in things like family income and educational success to some inherent aspect of blacks as being fundamentally inferior? I'm just trying to understand your position. You contend that the effects of racial prejudice has been overcome but offer no explanation for these disparities. As well as the disparity in prison population. Would you contend then that blacks are inherently more prone to crime?

Don't worry Brother D assumes that you are inherently good.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 08:51:13 PM by BikerDude »

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BikerDude

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2016, 09:21:50 PM »
It's true, it's not a passing fad, at least not from where I'm standing. But enough of those minorities get together and you have a revolution.

And yes, misery doth sucketh, but letting it warsh over you, keeps you down in the dumps. I don't think anyone really wants to be unhappy, I mean, what's the point?
You can't be worried about that shit, life goes on, man.
I'm down with revolution thing. And I would suggest that it is the best tonic for misery. And misery as the best motivation for revolution.
Contentment in misery to me resembles that abandonment of hope.
In fact blacks used to have a slang term "mad and glad"
The idea was that once you lose your anger over your situation you had lost your humanity.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 09:26:28 PM by BikerDude »

Out here we are all his children

Brother D

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2016, 03:09:43 AM »
The inherent good thing, is from the view that no one is born an asshole and unless someone intentionally makes a bad impression, or deliberately tries to upset or hurt another, they are going to be nice and good when first met.

Also, I believe in the same way, that disrespect is earned. (A view I learned from a dude on this forum).

Also, is Black the preferred nomenclature? It's a PC minefield nowadays!

BikerDude

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2016, 07:52:30 AM »
The inherent good thing, is from the view that no one is born an asshole and unless someone intentionally makes a bad impression, or deliberately tries to upset or hurt another, they are going to be nice and good when first met.

Also, I believe in the same way, that disrespect is earned. (A view I learned from a dude on this forum).

Also, is Black the preferred nomenclature? It's a PC minefield nowadays!

Black is obviously correct. Black lives matter?

The fact that no one is born an asshole is an eternal source of hope but in practical terms irrelevant. The issue is that for some reason people seem to pretty universally express their will through xenophobia and racism and hatred.
Again this often collapses when speaking about individuals. But once people organize themselves into societies the net will of the society seems to pretty consistently express it's self in these ways. If we look for instance at MLK. The level of resistance that his movement met from the usual suspects (southern racists Klan etc) is unsurprising but the fact is that the government, specifically the FBI, led a coordinated effort to undermine him should more clearly illustrate things. As an obvious example. Don't even get started about the government and native Americans. Yes I know the same government eventually passed the civil rights act.
How should a native american living in pine ridge for instance react when mostly privileged white people who deem themselves decent are primarily concerned and guided by the principle that everyone is born good. It's irrelevant. Clearly they somehow turn into xenophobic racist pricks. To focus primarily on how people inflicting real misery on others decade after decade were "born good" seems calloused in the extreme and the product of privilege. All houses are built not on fire. Once they catch fire it's irrelivant.

So to bring it back around to the topic.
I do see the issue of the real big important stuff as a big problem for dudeism. Well that's obvious from the get go.
Are we really basically a bunch of spoiled pissy privileged white kids spouting vague sort of eastern sounding platitudes while we GLORIFY callously ignoring the plight of everyone less fortunate because dealing with it harshes our mellow?
In fact counciling that they should be content with their misery.
(Or at best profess to deeply care but choose feel good mumbo jumbo that has the net effect of inaction)

This is our concern dudes.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 01:11:50 PM by BikerDude »

Out here we are all his children

Brother D

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2016, 11:17:37 AM »
I'm not sure it's about ignoring the less fortunate, the difficulty I have, is though we (the editorial), acknowledge the ills of the world, we're powerless to do anything about it.

Quoting a film, sending prayers or liking it on Facebook, changes nothing sadly, so maybe you're right man.

All we can do as dudes, is think global, act local and get involved. Petition parliament/ congress, actually help where we can.

Reminds me of this.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3De3C9rMIRuF8&ved=0ahUKEwjfmbqJl5TPAhXrI8AKHSSDBjMQ3ywIHDAA&usg=AFQjCNFkhiEpkzggvTsegJ0aQeA3gEwVsA&sig2=QLpWgiJHTkEwWn65PjXmcQ

BikerDude

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2016, 01:21:53 PM »
I'm not sure it's about ignoring the less fortunate, the difficulty I have, is though we (the editorial), acknowledge the ills of the world, we're powerless to do anything about it.

Quoting a film, sending prayers or liking it on Facebook, changes nothing sadly, so maybe you're right man.

All we can do as dudes, is think global, act local and get involved. Petition parliament/ congress, actually help where we can.

Reminds me of this.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3De3C9rMIRuF8&ved=0ahUKEwjfmbqJl5TPAhXrI8AKHSSDBjMQ3ywIHDAA&usg=AFQjCNFkhiEpkzggvTsegJ0aQeA3gEwVsA&sig2=QLpWgiJHTkEwWn65PjXmcQ

The question arises about whether it a good thing to recommend inaction as a principle. I'll grant it has its place.
Dudeism helps me where it's appropriate.
For instance when I'm called upon to clean up mountains of steaming shit created by people that companies hire from india. Yet despite breathtaking ineptitude these people brought over on work visas maintain a staggering level of arrogance. Dudeism allows me to mellow and not sweat it and surf the web. Fuck it! I don't end up dwelling on the uselessness of an infrastructure of directors and potentates who if there was justice in the world would earn their keep servicing sailors orally.
Fuck it dude. I can't be worried about that shit.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 01:24:08 PM by BikerDude »

Out here we are all his children

Brother D

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2016, 02:58:11 PM »
I think we're on the same page, dude.

Im not sure I would suggest inaction, it helps no one. I would suggest non violent protests etc. If you can act in a peaceful, proactive way, then by all means do.

It bums me out that I can't help all those that need it, I wish I had the necessary means, but I, (like most of us), can only do so much.

(Is this what is meant by Engaged Dudeism?).

As for what to do in the meantime, do what you will, but harm none.
Same for the rest of us really.

Dude Skippy

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2016, 08:48:51 PM »

...

So to bring it back around to the topic.
I do see the issue of the real big important stuff as a big problem for dudeism. Well that's obvious from the get go.
Are we really basically a bunch of spoiled pissy privileged white kids spouting vague sort of eastern sounding platitudes while we GLORIFY callously ignoring the plight of everyone less fortunate because dealing with it harshes our mellow?
In fact counciling that they should be content with their misery.
(Or at best profess to deeply care but choose feel good mumbo jumbo that has the net effect of inaction)

This is our concern dudes.

That's worth thinking about. It goes a step further than my initial pondering, and raises an important question. I'm wondering if I'm struggling to crack this case because of my idea of "abiding" has been partially framed by The Big Lebowski, which is set in a time and place far from serious hardship.

jgiffin

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Re: Abiding in disadvantaged circumstances
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2016, 10:30:39 PM »
The oppression of the minority thing, while a historical reality and though it inevitably remains as to given individuals, has largely been overcome in the aggregate. Minority status is now, all things being equal, a boon and not a detriment. You can argue certain minorities find themselves disadvantaged from the start. And fair enough. But, even in those circumstances, the minority will generally be advantaged in comparison to a white person born into the same situation.

Okay, that was way more vague and generalistic than intended. Let's put some meat on it. A black kid born into a poor family is going to get advantages that a white kid born across the street to similarly poor parents won't get. Higher education quotas (call it what you will but it's essentially a quota). Specialized scholarships. Minority loan benefits. The perceived benefit of having a critical mass of minority employees. Qualification of minority (and women) owned businesses, particularly in the arena of government contracts. It's a lot. It just is.

I dunno, man. I just don't see how we destroy the last vestiges of prejudice by being prejudicial.

So then can I assume that you attribute the disparity in things like family income and educational success to some inherent aspect of blacks as being fundamentally inferior? I'm just trying to understand your position. You contend that the effects of racial prejudice has been overcome but offer no explanation for these disparities. As well as the disparity in prison population. Would you contend then that blacks are inherently more prone to crime?

Don't worry Brother D assumes that you are inherently good.

No problem. As to the first question (fundamental inferiority), not at all. And I don't deny that, as an overall statistical proposition, white people in the US are born into more advantaged circumstances than most minority populations. The explanation for these disparities is the whole of US and world history. But we're all individuals, not statistical groups.

As to the second question (prone to crime), well, yes. That's also borne out by the statistics.

But my point was just to compare the majority and the minority born into the same situation. In that case, though we pretend all people are to be treated equally, the minority actually enjoys some rather substantial and easily pointed to benefits to the detriment of the majority. And it's not as if those benefits come as the expense of Clintons or Bushes - they come from those similarly situated and disadvantaged majorities. What's the logical or ethical foundation for that?

 

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