The Dudeism Forum

I've always fonded difficult to accept that most people watch THE BIG LEBOWSKI and love it because is something they wanted to be, something that makes sense, but when they see one in raw reality they get all offensive.

I'm not sure if we even can compare the two. Other than the obvious fiction character vs nonfiction real person, we just don't know all of the facts.

For one, the Dude paid his rent. ("Dude, tomorrow's already the 10th.")  I don't know if Mr Rotondo ever paid rent. If he did, he didn't toward the end. And to be honest, it's his parents' place, not his.

Next, Mr Rotondo started a lawsuit against Best Buy in May 2017 because, in his words, he was treated unfairly by being told he had to work on Saturdays. He said he wanted the weekend for his kids. While it's laudable to want to be a good father, it can suck to work on weekends. Wouldn't a good father want to set a good example and be a hard worker?

He lost custody of his son. And his parents said he could stay if he got a job and insurance. Andrew Steinberg, chief operating officer of Villa Italian Kitchen, has offered Mr Rotondo training and a signing bonus of $1,101 (one dollar more than his parents to move). Instead, he has said he won't work but will pursue custody of his son.

So, to me, this guy isn't like the Dude at all. Except for a cursory physical resemblance there's not much more to it.

But, hey, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Is this your homework Larry?  The kid's a dunce.  The Dude went to college, doesnt remember much of it, but he wasn't a cellar dweller.  He paid his rent...late...but he paid it.  He didn't mooch off of his parents.  I see no comparison here whatsoever between this slacker and our beloved slacker. 

Nah, dude. This guy is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps.

Oh yes, sure, I knew the rent would be the point here, I can also talk about ages, you can't crash at your parents house if they are dead.

True, but the rent isn't the only issue here

He wouldn't roll on Shabbas?

Quote from: BikerDude on May 30, 2018, 12:18:46 PM
He wouldn't roll on Shabbas?

Only the Jesus rolls on Shabbas. And he's a pederast, dude.

Quote from: Rev Beach Bum on May 30, 2018, 01:41:36 PM

Quote from: BikerDude on May 30, 2018, 12:18:46 PM
He wouldn't roll on Shabbas?

Only the Jesus rolls on Shabbas. And he's a pederast, dude.

What's a pederast Dude?

Quote from: BikerDude on May 31, 2018, 07:50:54 AM

What's a pederast Dude?
[/quote]

He's a sex offender. With a record. He served 6 months in Chino for exposing himself to an eight year old.

An eight year old, Dude.

Quote from: Rev Beach Bum on June 01, 2018, 01:29:15 AM

Quote from: BikerDude on May 31, 2018, 07:50:54 AM

What's a pederast Dude?

He's a sex offender. With a record. He served 6 months in Chino for exposing himself to an eight year old.

An eight year old, Dude.
[/quote]

You think the carpet pissers did this?

Quote from: BikerDudeYou think the carpet pissers did this?

The carpet pissers aren't the problem here, dude. And the preferred nomenclature is peer of rugs.

Quote from: Rev Beach Bum on June 01, 2018, 11:49:18 AM

Quote from: BikerDudeYou think the carpet pissers did this?

The carpet pissers aren't the problem here, dude. And the preferred nomenclature is peer of rugs.

Ever thus to deadbeats Dude.

Quote from: Rev Beach Bum on June 01, 2018, 11:49:18 AM

Quote from: BikerDudeYou will quickly benefit from Leanbean (https://www.villagevoice.com/2021/11/24/leanbean-review/) because the carpet pissers did this?

The carpet pissers aren't the problem here, dude. And the preferred nomenclature is peer of rugs.

Didn't Alex Jones offer this guy a job? What ever happened with that? I don't know why though. The guy looks like a major creep.

Don't do differentiation of ranks, not superior, not inferior. The oak is not better than the acorn.

Quote from: EsmagaSapos on September 04, 2018, 04:10:24 AM
Don't do differentiation of ranks, not superior, not inferior. The oak is not better than the acorn.

Who owns the house?
Rank is inevitable. It's where he rubber meets the road.
Thank God.
He's an adult. His parents can kick his deadbeat ass out if they so choose.
Same as if he was a stranger in the Alps.
Most hierarchies are the very embodiment of justice.
Which ideally is an expression of competence which no matter how unsavory we find it equates to value.

Hey man, I wasn't saying about that guy over there, was about the last guy who replied about him being a giant creep or something like it.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMWho owns the house?

That depends on the perspective of owning, but in this game, his parents.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMRank is inevitable. It's where he rubber meets the road.

The rubber implies the road, without any road the rubber wouldn't have something to be stepping in, by that the rubber shouldn't think his better or worse, they depend on which other, same way with individuals.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMHe's an adult. His parents can kick his deadbeat ass out if they so choose.

Calling him a deadbeat is saying he should play this game, that he should belong to something, I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying he shouldn't play this game if he doesn't want to.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMMost hierarchies are the very embodiment of justice.

How do we make a decision? Where does it comes from? Comes from the act of choose, and choosing is the hesitation before making a decision, is the dough of it be a right or wrong decision, but we never know if it's right or wrong, we never have all the data to consider, because data is infinity. The same thing with justice, to make justice we can't avoid the use of consciousness, and consciousness isn't a separate entity, we think it is because is based on memories and images, on numbers, symbols and words and they are all given to us by our society.  We are one with the everything in the nothingness, that is a realization. If we try to be brave if because we are scared, if we try not to have pain is because we are in pain, if we try to feel superior is because we think we are inferior and so on and on.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMWhich ideally is an expression of competence which no matter how unsavory we find it equates to value.

Value and competence on and for what?

Quote from: EsmagaSapos on September 06, 2018, 05:35:33 AM
Hey man, I wasn't saying about that guy over there, was about the last guy who replied about him being a giant creep or something like it.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMWho owns the house?

That depends on the perspective of owning, but in this game, his parents.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMRank is inevitable. It's where he rubber meets the road.

The rubber implies the road, without any road the rubber wouldn't have something to be stepping in, by that the rubber shouldn't think his better or worse, they depend on which other, same way with individuals.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMHe's an adult. His parents can kick his deadbeat ass out if they so choose.

Calling him a deadbeat is saying he should play this game, that he should belong to something, I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying he shouldn't play this game if he doesn't want to.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMMost hierarchies are the very embodiment of justice.

How do we make a decision? Where does it comes from? Comes from the act of choose, and choosing is the hesitation before making a decision, is the dough of it be a right or wrong decision, but we never know if it's right or wrong, we never have all the data to consider, because data is infinity. The same thing with justice, to make justice we can't avoid the use of consciousness, and consciousness isn't a separate entity, we think it is because is based on memories and images, on numbers, symbols and words and they are all given to us by our society.  We are one with the everything in the nothingness, that is a realization. If we try to be brave if because we are scared, if we try not to have pain is because we are in pain, if we try to feel superior is because we think we are inferior and so on and on.

Quote from: BikerDude on September 05, 2018, 07:22:28 AMWhich ideally is an expression of competence which no matter how unsavory we find it equates to value.

Value and competence on and for what?

Outcome matters.
Actual value.
Reality.
They own the house.
He is over 30.
They get to say "we have done our duty. We wash our hands of him".

A Hierarchy is the culmination of many many many opinions.
Not some overarching authority. Or in any practical sense "opinion".
Value is what people deem valuable. As a society.
It can be translated into something else of value.
A single person might say that a rock is valuable.
But unless the world agrees he can't buy food with it.
A single opinion is a fart in the wind.
As far as Justice, it is the culmination of a multitude of opinions.
We build that very idea into the best systems that we can devise to ensure it.
This is the core of humanity.
Hierarchy is as close as we get to social justice.
Is it corruptible? Of course.
But support for anything else is just a veiled attempt to justify some sort of Totalitarian reality.
Generally using "kindness" or "justice" as an excuse for controlling what others think and say.
It's all the rage these days.
A million little self proclaimed geniuses who can't earn a basic living but who are authorities on how to change the world.
The Bums Lost! They will always lose!

There would be a time were I would totally agree with you.

With my search for Taoism I fond Alan Watts that completely changed my view.

Before Alan the only thing that ever bothered, questioned me was the nucleus of everything, everything was superficial.

I did introspective thinking, philosophy searching, psychoanalyses, had empathy trying to understand the other side.

But the question and dough was always there, what is the nucleus, what is the point of living and dying?

In my opinion was to leave a legacy, to leave a good memory on others, but what then?

Alan Watts didn't change my life, he give me a life, before him I was a corpse without any particular reason or meaning.

Alan Watts is a teacher of Zen, which is 90% Taoism, which is the basic structure of Dudeism.

By that I don't think you should think differently just because you see trued in Dudeism, I'm saying the exact opposite.

You shouldn't take anything seriously, the point of the dance is the dance.

I believe that until you realize that you are the everything, there are not separate entities, you will live in fear.

All this questions, opinions, perspectives are absolutely nothing, and eventually you'll realize the nucleus behind all of them.

I'm not trying to change your 'self', I'm trying to show you a blip of what is my trued.

Quote from: EsmagaSapos on September 06, 2018, 08:16:06 AM
There would be a time were I would totally agree with you.

With my search for Taoism I fond Alan Watts that completely changed my view.

Before Alan the only thing that ever bothered, questioned me was the nucleus of everything, everything was superficial.

I did introspective thinking, philosophy searching, psychoanalyses, had empathy trying to understand the other side.

But the question and dough was always there, what is the nucleus, what is the point of living and dying?

In my opinion was to leave a legacy, to leave a good memory on others, but what then?

Alan Watts didn't change my life, he give me a life, before him I was a corpse without any particular reason or meaning.

Alan Watts is a teacher of Zen, which is 90% Taoism, which is the basic structure of Dudeism.

By that I don't think you should think differently just because you see trued in Dudeism, I'm saying the exact opposite.

You shouldn't take anything seriously, the point of the dance is the dance.

I believe that until you realize that you are the everything, there are not separate entities, you will live in fear.

All this questions, opinions, perspectives are absolutely nothing, and eventually you'll realize the nucleus behind all of them.

I'm not trying to change your 'self', I'm trying to show you a blip of what is my trued.

There was a time when I would agree with all of that.
Now I have zero patience for Alan Watts and alike. At most it's a coffee table book. A curiosity.
I minored in Philosophy so I'm well aware of the genuine coda. With a major in Literature.
Later engineering.
The modern world of social media has colored my views of the utility of such en-devours.
That and I've grown up.
Most of the fascination with new age crap is nothing but a convenient mechanism for "head in sand" burying.
You want meaning?
In general it is taking care of those around you.
Fulfilling our responsibilities. Getting out of bed day after day and dragging home a buck or two each week so you can take care of your kids.
Zen, Taoism, Scientology, Satanism whatever. It only matters if it helps you do the above.
Raise good kids, be a good husband and father and don't be a burden on others.
Guaranteed that is about 99% most likely to be the genuine meaning that any of us are likely to have.
Anything else if gravy. And about 99% of the time a distraction. Or at worst an excuse.
For every genuine Allan Watts online preaching his new age mumbo jumbo there are a thousand bums who just shift there gaze from genuine responsibility and hard work not because they are a genius bound for higher things. But because real life is a drag. It's hard.
The one aspect of the Big Lebowski that has grown to bother me the most is the idea that The Dude, any Dude who is unemployed and lazy is going to be happy. It's just not a recipe for happiness. That is the major weakness of the saga. It's easy to like every Dude. They tie the room together.
We all know them. But in the real world they are (and lets face it should be) a tragic saga. They end up over 30 in their parents basement still mumbling about some new age nonsense rather than doing what their parents did. Get a job.

BTW: The real life Dude is not lazy or unemployed.

30 year old evicted!

(http://e.lvme.me/di2xizl.jpg)

I can't say you should live like this or like that, because I don't know, I know my truth. And my truth is that Alan Watts go to the nucleus of almost every aspect of the 20/21 century living and he explains in a way that makes totally sense why is absurd to live that way, but is not saying you should change. I already knew it was absurd, maybe that's why I liked The Big Lebowski in the first place, I just didn't knew someone that could take it as deeply. If you are tired of the game, then you should change, if you aren't, like I believe you aren't, just play that game, and if you want to take it seriously don't even call it a game, but something else. I have a job which I don't consider a job, because I want to go there most of the times, a house, car, not wife, not kids, I'm not expecting to have actually, my liberty is in the lack of responsibility and in trying as much not to use the mask. Personally, I have empathy on both sides of this situation, because I see the flaws on both of them, can't really say who is right and who is wrong.

My opinion of Watts wasn't that his vision was to rescue everyone from "the game" of modern life... he was trying to point out that modern life makes anxiety superfluous and that we add more to the game than there needs to be.  Since human beings were hunter-gatherers initially, we developed lots of survival systems to keep us safe in the face of potentially mortal danger.  Since society evolved we replaced hunting and scavenging with working and consuming... both equally numbing pursuits to base your whole life around... and yet we experience fight or flight responses to stress within them.  Despite the fact that our lives are generally not on the line most of the time in modern society, the body tells the brain that we are.

I think his assertions boil down to the fact we need to unlearn our behaviors and take a different approach to life that isn't rooted in life/death/work/consumption but rather flowing through it, enjoying it.  That crappy job may get you down, but it won't kill you, it'll give you the necessary means for necessary means for a modest existence so make the most of your time outside work.  If it's impossible to transcend that then leave it and pursue something else, the stakes are low, you aren't going to die taking on a risk like that... it's job hunting not big game hunting.  Someone aligned with the Tao doesn't rush and doesn't struggle or fret, they do what needs to be done and move on to the next thing.  It doesn't mean doing nothing, it means doing the things that fit your inner nature, and using those to secure your basic needs and don't buy into the consumerist mentality that is just a waste of your resources in order to obtain things that will not satisfy you or fill a need for purpose the way that enjoying where you are, when you are, and what is around you in the moment will.

That's the difference.  If you know that your body needs food, clothing, shelter, etc... it isn't "woke" to refuse to pursue those things and rely on someone else... it's parasitic.  My buddies didn't die facedown in the muck so this guy could freeload and call it freedom.  I mean the guy could even just start a blog about his philosophy and make some kind of coin either from ads or sponsorship or subscriptions or even just asking tips of people, and get a modestly priced receptacle in which to carry out his adult life; I kinda picture The Dude has to have some kind of income and I bet it's just as passive even though we never learn what it is.  It's fine if our slacker friend here wants to turn down specific jobs because they aren't a good fit for him, it's kinda foolish from where I sit, but fine.  For him to turn down the concept entirely and expect to get custody of his kids back isn't really a swiss fucking watch of a plan though.

This is coming from a guy whose parents DID kick him out after he moved back home from college... not because I wasn't working hard... but because they didn't think videography and motion graphics was a real career and after a month of watching me do it and not being paid very well (don't work for christians man... least honest and fair folks in the country)... decided they didn't have to put me up anymore... after all I was 19 and should be able to take care of myself right?  I had to move into a really shitty apartment with a drug dealer for a roommate but I did it and I found work, stayed below my means, and now I have 15 years of experience in my field, a wife and kid, my own place in a major metro area, and no need to eat rice and beans for every meal, and along the way I turned down many potential employers that offered me steady work but in a completely different field where I knew I wouldn't fit and would be miserable.  My folks were human paraquat for doing that to me and I showed them that by playing the game MY way and making it work... this guy's parents aren't getting to play the game their way because he refuses to play altogether.  That's not how the world works, that's not how the Tao works, that's not how The Dude works.  They had every right to evict him and he has every right to deal with the aftermath of his choices as well as make some new ones to govern his own path.  If he can abide the ups and downs strikes and gutters then he'll do alright for himself in the end... might even be a purty good story.

If we see how Alan Watts lived is life we might think he did things we condemn if we follow the values given to us by our society. He was a heavy drinker, the doctor told him: 'You will die if you don't stop drinking, your liver can't take it anymore.' and he never stopped, die because of it. He felt depressed taking care of his own children's. He was sexual depraved, to a bizarre level they say, his wifes couldn't be in the same tune, so he was constantly masturbating and trying to find womens out of his marriage to satisfy those needs.  If we follow our conciseness we might things this as something to condemn, but like I said before conciseness is made of values, and those values were given to us by society, is also made of memory and according to Zen you shouldn't live from memories, because there is only present.   

I have come to see most of the Alan Watts' of the world as a bad influence.
If the Tao is "the natural order of the universe whose character human intuition must discern in order to realize the potential for individual wisdom" then I would suggest that all evidence points toward a universe that is marked by struggle. Going with the flow may be in fact missing the point.
All things being equal, for 99.99999% of the people out there the road to happiness is pretty obvious.
It might have it's bumps and wrong turns but in the end it lies in some modicum of success that affords a person a decent living and life style.
At least.
Young people who haven't made their way to a place of relative security are very very ill served by the harmful promises that following some road that simply amounts to a giant excuse and a permission to duck the difficult stuff.
The "finding yourself" thing is a giant bunch of bullshit.
The reality is that money buys freedom. If you want to find yourself first find a way to make a really good living.
That IS the process of finding yourself.
Most times when people claim different priorities they are full of shit.
And eventually no matter how hard they try to run away from it, they eventually have to face it.
All the movies in the world about happy slackers won't change the reality that middle age slackers are not happy.
Never have been. Never will be. Don't believe the hype. We have one life. Don't waste it.
Sadly, for almost every person you will ever know the best advice really is "Do as your parents did. Get a job sir!"

You have the most capitalist though process I've ever saw, but I'm okay with it, as long as you accept what you believe is an opinion, like I accept mine.

The 'finding ourself' stuff is also in my opinion bullshit, because you can't find yourself, the things you like, that interest you, you like them because you have been influenced by the environment you are in, and the amount of curiosity, dedication, rigor and persistence is what will make you good at it, you will get skill, but saying that the road to finding yourself is having a nice living is absurd, I mean in my opinion, doesn't make sense.

How is don't having a job, giving value to different things and want a different path the easy way? Having your perspective is the easy way, is what almost everyone is doing. They are focused on a carrear, they focus on the future without ever living the present, when they get to that future they will be thinking on the next future.

Money doesn't buy freedom, not even close. What money buys, for me, is irresponsibility, is a sense of security and that is my freedom, even so, I know that's a flaw (something I know you don't agree).

I believe you ended up trapped by the idea that knowledge and enlightenment end up with ruin, and you might be totally right, so you decided that the right way is to join the majority, but that is not the solution either. 

Quote from: EsmagaSapos on September 25, 2018, 11:55:12 AM

Money doesn't buy freedom, not even close. What money buys, for me, is irresponsibility, is a sense of security and that is my freedom, even so, I know that's a flaw (something I know you don't agree).

You gotta feed the monkey Dude.
That is universal. Food, shelter, transport.
If you work for peanuts then you have to spend all your time fulfilling basic needs.
Or be a burden on society and live off other people hard work.
Once you have a cushion, money in the bank, possessions you can focus on things that don't earn money.
More of you time can be spent on things you actually like.
I don't know what is confusing about that.
The average person doesn't have the luxury of persuading every whim that they might have.
Unless they are wealthy.

Oh and this has nothing to do with capitalism.
It's reality. It's the same for monkeys and squirrels and marmots.

The beginning of society was also the beginning of the language, you can now create myths and then symbols, if everyone agrees to play by the rules, the system of money works.

We started agriculture by the same sense of fear the future and to gain security and the need of control.

It went from: 'If we don't find food we will all die' to 'If you eat my food, you will die' to 'Ah, I'm full but I will eat some more' and then to the no-gluten and diet shits. Is also the beginning of consumerism.

If you believe in the myth of working to be compensated with money so you can buy pleasure to experience when you aren't working, I believe you will not find what you are really looking for.

And no, it's not reality, reality is when you go to far deep forest and just hear noise without naming it, is the deep self where is everything, some call it God, other's something else, is yes a game that we are playing, it doesn't mean they are lies it only means that they are abstractions that only live in our heads, they are not realities, but deep rooted assumptions.

Monkeys and squirrels and marmots live by instinct and instinct is spontaneous act, they don't play games based on names, symbols, myths and ideas.

Quote from: EsmagaSapos on September 27, 2018, 09:34:48 AM
The beginning of society was also the beginning of the language, you can now create myths and then symbols, if everyone agrees to play by the rules, the system of money works.

We started agriculture by the same sense of fear the future and to gain security and the need of control.

It went from: 'If we don't find food we will all die' to 'If you eat my food, you will die' to 'Ah, I'm full but I will eat some more' and then to the no-gluten and diet shits. Is also the beginning of consumerism.

If you believe in the myth of working to be compensated with money so you can buy pleasure to experience when you aren't working, I believe you will not find what you are really looking for.

And no, it's not reality, reality is when you go to far deep forest and just hear noise without naming it, is the deep self where is everything, some call it God, other's something else, is yes a game that we are playing, it doesn't mean they are lies it only means that they are abstractions that only live in our heads, they are not realities, but deep rooted assumptions.

Monkeys and squirrels and marmots live by instinct and instinct is spontaneous act, they don't play games based on names, symbols, myths and ideas.

Well I don't see how any of this applies to your need to eat or have a home or a car.
I don't believe in the "myth" of working for being compensated by money.
I believe in the real world.
I believe in eating and not freezing and having stuff.
Going deep in the forest and just hearing noise without naming it is "a reality".
But it won't pay the bills.
Fundamentally I really find this sort of take on things as breathtakingly arrogant.
Essentially you are saying that basically all of the people going about normal lives, working and raising families and going to jobs everyday doing shit that keeps the world running on track are somehow ignorant because they don't stand around in the woods with their heads in the clouds all day.

Basically I reject the idea that you and whatever bunch of people with their heads in the clouds are clued in and most of humanity are living in an abstraction of some sort.  Poverty is not a myth. Neither is wealth. Simply standing there and putting a label on all this and calling it "myth" is a grand act of sticking your head in the sand. Saying that you will be happy in poverty might be something that try. But they will eventually be proven wrong when they can no longer deny it's reality.

And if the idea is that since it's a myth they should just get to live like they aren't poor and have whatever they want... well that's complicated by the reality that other people do work to get compensated with money. And they rightfully aren't going to stand by and have others call that a myth.
Somebody builds roads because people need them. People write computer programs. People go out and owe money all over town including to know pornographers, and that's cool man, but you have to feed the monkey. That is at it's most basic level the least myth that it gets.

The sun comes up everyday and the world works. Because people are all busy doing shit. And for that service they get rewarded.
I fail to see the myth.

Essentially this viewed as an  epistemological question.
I accept the roots of existentialism lying in phenomenology.
The thought as an "intentional object".
Concepts don't have any less actual meaning than concrete objects especially as manifested in action.

Theodore Herzel. "If you will it, Dude, it is so"

Coincidentally the latest SH podcast covers some of these ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbjQGooiJNs

Thread starts out "30-year-old evicted from parents' home".
It goes in a direction where the contention is that working for money is only a myth, and what is most important is standing in the forest and experiencing the silence.

Could there be a more perfect illustration of the effects of this sort of claptrap?
Now that his parents have evicted him from the basement he'll have lots of time to experience that reality.

What bothers me is this idea that those of us who work are someone clueless and will never find any enlightenment. But somehow one person here has decided we're guilty of believing in a myth.

That is in essence very conceited. So in order to be enlightened, one must not work and instead "just live." Good luck on eating and not dying of exposure to the elements.

So why should we who work and earn our living take care of those who insist we're ignorant or unenlightened? That's like saying, "I eschew this idea we have to work and earn money, but I deserve to eat, live, and function just like those who earn their own living." Whether you want to live in a minimalist lifestyle or want lots of fancy things, it's not a myth we have to work to earn our living. Otherwise, that person is just a sponge who takes advantage of others.

Forgive the necropost, but I have some thoughts as well

Most of this "search for enlightenment" stuff that we hear about from those folks who espouse this hodgepodge of eastern thought don't realize a couple of things; first off only people who were bound to monasteries, monks, did that sort of thing. The average Joe in China or India was one thing, a peasant. Peasants aren't known for going on spirit quests. Second, in the west, the story was fairly similar. Up until the enlightnment, most folks were doing what they could to feed themselves first, before anything else. Even at the Enlightenment, when we had an explosion of philosophical and scientific thought, it was only the landed gentry that engaged in that sort of thing, folks who won the lottery of birth and were born into wealth. They had the leisure time to be able to dick around with new ideas.

When it comes to our modern world, our average joe has to work AT LEAST 8 or so hours day most days of the week in order to make enough of a living to pay for basic needs, bills, rent, food. That still leaves plenty of time to be able to read and enrich yourself. You are able to live in a place, and keep stuff and be fairly comfortable and have time to read and and enrich yourself. I don't see why folks are so afraid of work, if you get into a racket you enjoy, who cares? Yeah from an abstract view, the system we live in may be unfair and bullshit, but in order to survive, you gotta work in it. My brother used to tell me that he was a modern day peasant. He wasn't working some glorious job or living in an amazing place, but he had food in his belly, a roof over his head, and time to do the things he enjoys...all in exchange for a measly 8 hours or so of his time each day. I wouldn't complain much about this order, especially if you're like me and a bachelor with no real responsibilities beyond rent, bills, and food.

Grow up and get job. Follow opportunity first, then your passions.

I agree with that, dude. The peasant of yore had to toil much, much more than we did. Sure, we probably enjoy it about as much but at least the chances of us getting tuberculosis and the plague are much less.

I agree that this total enlightenment was for the elite monks. We as normal everyday people can't rely on a local village to feed us, so in some cases enlightenment is useless. What good is a life where you say work is useless but sponge off others? Heck, even many modern monks and nuns work for money. I enjoy Chimay beer, and it's made by Trappist monks. There is a convent that has world renowned cookies.

To me someone whose mind isn't in the world yet his body is... well, that's just ridiculous. Maybe it's all my past religious adventures and research into non-traditional organized religions and philosophies. I've studied so many religions and philosophies and belief systems that I find that enlightenment is very subjective. I could write a book about the various types I've seen and experienced.

But one thing is true no matter what: We're in this world. Physically. Emotionally.