Howdy dudes,
I just recently finished reading the Abide Guide and despite this little piece of literature instantly becoming one of my bookshelves classics, there's still something that doesn't tie the rug quite together in it for me...
The reason for this is that a lot of dudeists seem to view Walter and the Dude as irreconcilable characters. But what if there were some lessons we could derive from Walter? What if the Coen brothers' message was actually more subtle than just discarding Walter because of his "undude" attitude - like the Abide Guide does? What if at certain moments in our lives, while still abiding and remaining dudes, it was necessary to draw a line in the sand?
Fight Club is a great analogy to illustrate my point. Even if Edward Norton lets go in a completely different way than the dude at the beginning of the movie by going to all those alcoholic-anonymous-type groups, I still think he's making a big step towards abiding. However, there's still something missing in his life and that's why the ghost of Tyler Durden appears to haunt him. If a similar ghost appeared in TBL, he would also haunt The Dude by saying so "you drink white russians and play bowling for a living, but what if I actually cut your housing benefits and you'd be facing foreclosure, would you still be chilling on the carpet?" I think that sometimes, when shit hits the fan, one needs to show some decisiveness in his life that comes closer to Walter's character than the Dude.
I can't post HTML links but the post entitled "Got Thumos?" on a blog called "art of manliness" is quite brilliant on this issue.
All of this is just like, my opinion man, but I am still interested to hear your thoughts :-)
Thankie.
Dudov
Definitely an interesting thought. I am going to attach a link to an article to the end of this response that touches on the same thing, "The Zen of Walter" on the Dudespaper.
There was a great interview in the Tricycle magazine (Buddhist focus) about a woman who runs a radio show that brings together people of historically polarized, differing opinions for respectful and meaningful conversation. I'm going to paraphrase here, but the point was that you cannot change others or their opinions, but you can improve how you live and communicate with those people. I think the Dude, and indeed Dudeism, is especially attuned to this. Yeah, we may strive to take it easy and abide, but look through the posts in this 'a here forum and you will see many people admitting Walter-like moments. Hell, the Dude spends a big chunk of TBL not being very calm at all. To me than, it is not about being better than the Walters out there, about changing them all into Jeffrey Lebowskis. It is about abiding and really embracing a wide variety of opinions, flaws, and strengths (both in others and ourselves), and still being able to draw a line in the sand / get the Dude's rug back.
Changing all the Walters out there sounds pretty fucking exhausting. Rolling with him and calling him on his shit every so often sounds more Dudely to me.
Welcome!
http://dudespaper.com/the-zen-of-walter.html/ (http://dudespaper.com/the-zen-of-walter.html/)
Big fan of Fight Club here. I've watched that movie more times than I can count. Initially I was drawn in because of the fight scenes and the ending of the film was really neat BUT I didn't get the meaning underneath the fighting and blowing shit up. I feel like the guy who is discussing his favorite song on a first date with a new girl and the song is playing in the car and he says to her "listen to the words, just listen to the words", as though the words will provide her with a window into his soul. And strangely enough I've never been that guy.
But after watching the movie a number of times I actually did start to hear the dialogue. It was about the simplification of life. Really just getting back to the basics. How, after fighting, the volume gets turned down in other areas of your life, as though the true importance of that suffocating, poisoning cubicle that you spend a third of your life in really starts to diminish to its true value. You are not the contents of your wallet, you are not your fuckin' khakis, you are not a special and unique snowflake, you are all part of the same compost heap.
In that respect the movie Fight Club bears much in common with the philosophy of TBL in that the Dude has pretty much abandoned the rat race and decided on a life of Caucasians, weed, and bowling. To me it isn't so much about Walter and how he gets by in the world as it is with the rejection of "normal" societal values like an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, a 2 car garage and a 2 story house and a couple of kids we can brag about, and similar bullshit.
I used to be a one man fight club.... any bar any place any time! Don't fuck with this dude...it will end badly for you.
I don't think the paraquats that crossed me quite got my message of peace and love.
Oh... then it dawned. I was probably... no definitely ... the paraquat.
I was in the military at the time and this sort of thing was expected I guess... so no harm no foul. I did spend 10 days inside a military prison for taking out two NCO's and a senior aicraftsman but that was just because my CO was unhappy because we were "flying the flag" in Canada! However when I left and I was still getting embroiled in fights it became a bit stale for everyone around me.
My last fight was with a copper..a young lad who didn't seem to know the rules. He pushed me after I was getting shirty with him after yet another fight in a bar, the instant he touched me he was fair game...so I let him have it!
Back at the nick the sergeant let me out of the cuffs, he was a decent sort and asked me very politely to not pick on his junior officers as he was now a man short for the remaining weeks night shift! Next morning the CID officer reviewed the CCTV footage with me. He was pissing himself laughing as was I ... I had to fill him in on the dialogue though as there was no sound.
He was a dude for sure. He let me go with a caution and the same promise... not to hit the young coppers who were not there to deal with "the likes of me"! Whatever that means!
I took a long look at that night and decided that I wasn't going to hit anyone again unless I really really really needed to! Haven't needed to so far.
So can I ask you Karma dude? Have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever been hit really hard but still carried on? Have you ever won a fight? What was it like for for you when you make someone bleed and there is that instant in their eyes when they just give up and you know it so you hit them again even harder just to make sure? Have you been there and done that? That's how you make it stop! Or there's the other side when you're fighting in a toilet and rolling around in the pissy floor and it's going ok but then his mates come in and they proceed to kick seven shades of shit out off you. Have you been there?
Nah I'm guessing you haven't! It's not romantic. It's messy and unforgiving. I was lucky I won most of my fights and knives were only involved a couple of times....both times I managed to disarm the fucker and then really beat the bastard up. I've been crowned with an ashtray and an iron bar. I've taken on three blokes at once...decked the first fucker and watched the other two run away. I've been as nasty and as violent as I've needed to be to get myself out of any situation I put myself into...and yes it was generally me being the dickhead to see if I could get a reaction.
I put my "fight nights" behind me over 15 years ago. It's not big and it's not clever. It's not romantic...and it ain't like "fight club"
I did my fight club and learned from it...I decided to become a lot less uptight and I relaxed into the whole love your neighbour even if he is a dickhead thing. I know what an asshole I was and I know that I am a "nice guy" now. I understand Walter and I totally get the Dude.
You want to talk about the simplification of life? STOP FIGHTING!
Peace dudes
QuoteTo me it isn't so much about Walter and how he gets by in the world as it is with the rejection of "normal" societal values like an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, a 2 car garage and a 2 story house and a couple of kids we can brag about, and similar bullshit.
This is just, like my opinion man, but as a father to three kids and a dweller in a residence that I own that happens to have a second floor on it, I am a bit concerned about the "similar bullshit" comment. I am going to return to my own post and just say that being a Dude, to me, is abiding other opinions and lifestyles than your own. If you are talking about a perception that if you do not have these things (job, garage, house, family) that you are a "failure" in life, than I completely agree with you. That perception is bullshit. But I have chosen to be a Dude and I have chosen the job, wife, children, house because I am happy there and can still abide and take 'er easy. Maybe not as lazy as the Dude, but I aspire to the lifestyle when I can and consider it a balance. I would never say to someone that has rejected "'normal' societal values" that their choice is bullshit, and I hope others would abide with my choices. I think that is the beauty of Dudeism. It allows for the digging of many styles as long as there isn't too much Fascism / Nihilism / Over-Achiever-ism thrown in.
Keep on takin' it easy.
Fantastic thought!!
the funny thing is, I first watched The Big Lebowski right after watching The Fight Club for the first time. And I didn't get the message of either movie until later on.
If you ask me, it's all about choice. Either fight the system or fight a lifestyle comfortable enough for it not to bother you. But in both cases you should be prepared to have the system's benefits taken from you. I wouldn't say the Dude would do the same as Tyler did. The Dude knows who he is and abides with it no matter what. Tyler didn't know who he was. He didn't even have a name. It was not a journey of change due to outer events, it was a journey of self-discovery.
Walt is a different example imo. He's someone who is comfortable within the system and uses its benefits for his own benefit, thus he is very aggressive about maintaining it.
Quote from: Caesar dude on October 15, 2013, 11:32:17 PM
So can I ask you Karma dude? Have you ever been in a fight?
Nah I'm guessing you haven't!
Does it count if I hurt someone's feelings once?
Easy fellas, I was talking about a fuckin' movie. I didn't mean anything personal by it.
Thanks for all your feedback!
Rev. Paddy. Cakes, I liked your "Zen of Walter" article! It reminds me a bit of the book "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover" by Robert Moore. Without going into details, the idea is that an individual's psyche is made up of different unconscious "archetypes" that influence our behaviour. It's as if we were constantly having an internal dialogue with different forces such as Walt, The Dude etc... All those archetypes are of course not separate and blend in together like the Kahlua cream and vodka in a Caucasian man. The key is to find the right balance in the drink. Put too much vodka, kahlua or milk, the balance is broken...
Ceasar Dude, I think you didn't get my point. The reason I mentioned fight club is not because I think we should bring back to life some kind of inner urge to fight and start punching everyone who pisses us off. We're NOT slaves to our instincts. My point is that at certain moments, I believe it IS necessary to draw a line in the sand. It doesn't necessarily have to imply physical violence. For me, it rather means being in touch with some inner urge to stand up for ourselves when we have to. And I don't see this as incompatible with abiding. When we let that part of ourselves dominate us, we become Walters and that's not the point. I believe Walter is in the movie to warn us about the danger of becoming a slave to this inner drive, but that doesn't mean that force isn't there to begin with. The article "Got Thumos?" I mentioned about from Art of Manliness talks about this. If you haven't read it, I suggest you do.
Hope this doesn't seem too much like I am blathering about stuff man.
Thankie.
Dudov
Quote from: Rev Paddy Cakes on October 16, 2013, 11:36:52 AM
If you are talking about a perception that if you do not have these things (job, garage, house, family) that you are a "failure" in life, than I completely agree with you. That perception is bullshit.
What you said above is definitely a part of it. The other part is when an individual considers his single life to be so perfectly acceptable and even rewarding that he is empowered to ignore the societal pressure to have all those things. So maybe he just squats in an old building and makes soap. And he doesn't care what society, at large, thinks of his decision because he's happy with his life just the way it is.
QuoteThe other part is when an individual considers his single life to be so perfectly acceptable and even rewarding that he is empowered to ignore the societal pressure to have all those things. So maybe he just squats in an old building and makes soap. And he doesn't care what society, at large, thinks of his decision because he's happy with his life just the way it is.
I can definitely get behind this. Neither the single life or the married life is bullshit, is my argument. Maybe the motivations behind them is what is important. If a person were to embrace perpetual bachelor(ette)hood merely as a reactionary response to societal pressure, even though it would make him or her unhappy, the motivation would be a problem as well. Who knows. These decisions are so complex you could make an argument for and against them all, and do nothing but judge pointlessly in most cases. Something that just seems exhausting ...
Here's a question. Is there as much pressure these days to be married with children? Given the emphasis on individuality, I would say that the soap squatter is a lot less taboo nowadays than in the past. Thoughts? Opinions?
The movie illustrates the need for Dude's and Walters.
That's my take on it.
On occasion somebody just has to be there to deal with Nihilist's and paraquat and say clearly "Do see what happens when you fuck a stranger in that ass?!"
Even if it involves the senseless destruction of the occasional Corvette.
BTW: I've always thought of the Dude and Walter being polar extremes both of whom I personally like. And who I think serve a vital pupose in the movie. Makes me think.
If one could take 50% Dude and 50% Walter and express in in human form what would that look like?
For my money it would be a biker. Half Hippie half military Dude. A long haired, dope smoking hard partying Dude unconcerned with acceptance from society but at the same time unwilling to put up with any shit whatsoever. A Biker.
My concern with that line of reasoning is that being unconcerned by societal norms leads to actions that are criminal be it intentional or not. Both the dude and Walter display this tendency and I wonder what that means - the dude drinks and drives, Walter pulls his piece out on the lane etc
BikerDude, thats (almost) exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this thread. It seems to me like the purpose of these characters, and their friendship, serves as a way to say that one should abide to the best of their ability, but sometimes that can lead to being a constant victim; therefore, you must, at some point, let out a little of the walter in you and draw a line in the sand.
Also the biker is without a doubt the ultimate Dude/Walter hybrid, especially considering the Dude's 60's life-style.
Quote from: milnie on October 20, 2013, 04:57:43 PM
My concern with that line of reasoning is that being unconcerned by societal norms leads to actions that are criminal be it intentional or not. Both the dude and Walter display this tendency and I wonder what that means - the dude drinks and drives, Walter pulls his piece out on the lane etc
I think these two display two different extremes, much like between the two movies: not caring at all and caring too much.
Too much of anything can't be good for anyone. It's all about the balance, dude
Quote from: BrotherShamus on October 20, 2013, 05:53:25 PM
BikerDude, thats (almost) exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this thread. It seems to me like the purpose of these characters, and their friendship, serves as a way to say that one should abide to the best of their ability, but sometimes that can lead to being a constant victim; therefore, you must, at some point, let out a little of the walter in you and draw a line in the sand.
Also the biker is without a doubt the ultimate Dude/Walter hybrid, especially considering the Dude's 60's life-style.
Yup.
And the Dude is the thing that allows the very different characters to get along. Donnie and Walter are friends with the Dude but not with each other. He "Ties the Room Together". He Abides their particular issues
a?bide
əˈbīd/
verb
verb: abide; 3rd person present: abides; past tense: abided; past participle: abided; gerund or present participle: abiding
1.
accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation).
"I said I would abide by their decision"
synonyms: comply with, obey, observe, follow, keep to, hold to, conform to, adhere to, stick to, stand by, act in accordance with, uphold, heed, accept, go along with, acknowledge, respect, defer to More.
Quotecomply with, obey, observe, follow, keep to, hold to, conform to, adhere to, stick to, stand by, act in accordance with, uphold, heed, accept, go along with, acknowledge, respect, defer to More.
It's funny that the abiding definition that you gave speaks a lot conformity and compliance, when the Dude obviously does not conform or comply to many societal norms. I guess the difference is that he conforms to human connections (abiding with his friends with all their strikes and gutters) and basic moral decency, rather than specific definitions of a meaningful life (ie. wife, children, job, grooming, etc.). Is the Dude rewriting what it means to abide?
Yeah, it's almost as if they're not totally synonymous. where obey is more like an action, abide is more like non-action
Quote from: milnie on October 20, 2013, 04:57:43 PM
My concern with that line of reasoning is that being unconcerned by societal norms leads to actions that are criminal be it intentional or not.
I think, as we all know just from exposure to the mainstream press, that in today's society "criminal" is a nebulous term. We have pot smokers that are doing long stretches over the private property issue of what they choose to put in their own bodies. We also have real criminals who are walking the streets over technicalities. So the term criminal has been reduced to what the relative handful of people who make the rules deem as acceptable conduct for the rest of us. Kinda like the members of congress being legally allowed access to inside information when making stock trades while Martha Stewart caught 3 years fed time for the same thing.
I also tend to think that most people have a basic goodness that dictates that they not harm those around them while at the same time they reject those societal norms. They simply don't conform to the bullshit rules but they also don't wander around looking to injure anyone.
Quote from: Rev Paddy Cakes on October 21, 2013, 03:30:17 PM
Quotecomply with, obey, observe, follow, keep to, hold to, conform to, adhere to, stick to, stand by, act in accordance with, uphold, heed, accept, go along with, acknowledge, respect, defer to More.
It's funny that the abiding definition that you gave speaks a lot conformity and compliance, when the Dude obviously does not conform or comply to many societal norms.
It don't think of the common usage as being about conformity as much as acceptance.
Think of the opposite (which is more commonly used) "I can't not abide that".
To me abide doesn't mean agreement but acceptance. It's only once someone can not accept something that they "cannot abide it".
We can abide a lot of things that we don't agree with but that we just put up with.