http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxsQvrHPKCg&feature=relmfu
hehe I listend 18 minutes so far and think it has potentional to listen further and I will do it later today ! Pretty good !
And another one. Facepalm moments.
Statements made by the faithful that make you just put your face in the palm of your hand and sigh.
Quote
Fundamentalist asks "so then how did all the dinosaurs die?"
Scheptic replies "many scientists believe that a large meteor hit the earth and killed them"
Fundamentalist laughs and says "that's ridiculous. How could one meteor hit all the dinosaurs?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iyCDXF6lLI&feature=relmfu
Only if there's a lot of you debating at the same time (en-mass).
;D
I'm sorry I couldn't help myself.
Usually it's the better debater that wins, not the one who is right. Or, they can both be wrong. I like lively discussion just like the next guy, but I've never been swayed by an argument or debate itself, so maybe we just like to hear ourselves talk. ;)
David Suzuki said one time to someone he was debating with on the radio "I talk to explain what I'm thinking, you talk to find out what it is you're thinking." Going below the belt does less good for your stance than gentle persuasion by example...
Quote H "Usually it's the better debater that wins, not the one who is right."
so your saying the best is a master debator? :>
Quote from: milnie on July 18, 2012, 11:17:21 AM
Quote H "Usually it's the better debater that wins, not the one who is right."
so your saying the best is a master debator? :>
Yep, I can vouch...
I think in the context of Religious debate the question more means "Does rehashing the same nonsense over and over accomplish anything?"
The point being that no one ever "wins".
Debating the existence of ghosts for instance leads no where.
By definition one side of the debate IS irrational so the debate always devolves into, at best an exercise in hair splitting non sense that inevitably does nothing to fullfill the burden of proof.
Or not...
Quote from: BikerDude on July 18, 2012, 02:03:04 PM
I think in the context of Religious debate the question more means "Does rehashing the same nonsense over and over accomplish anything?"
The point being that no one ever "wins".
Debating the existence of ghosts for instance leads no where.
By definition one side of the debate IS irrational so the debate always devolves into, at best an exercise in hair splitting non sense that inevitably does nothing to fullfill the burden of proof.
Or not...
You're right. You and I had a great discussion about creative design, and I basically closed by saying that the foundational truths that form our world view are either incomplete, or viewed prejudicially because of personal predispositions. The more complex the subject, the less likely you'll find total agreement. Religion, politics, philosophy, the list goes on. That's why I say "May the best debater win" - and they will.
Of course...everything below is just like my opinion dudes! 8)
From Poly-Solipsism:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/118067270898779712769/posts
"I think"
We...the human species, can and have argued ad infinitum over what we each think, with little to no consensus on just about anything. The history of human discourse gives testament to our solipsism. The fact that after 5000 years of searching for "The Truth" and there still is not a single point not in contention, attests to the elemental flaw in our endeavors.
Fundamentally we are all Solipsist within our own minds, and what we perceive to be The Truth we then assume must be The Truth for all. It is our own solipsism that has each of us trapped within our own minds creating our own Reality and blinding us to the essence of what The Truth really is. We assume the other creatures we perceive populating our Universe are part of our own Reality and therefore must also share in the truth that we ourselves perceive. We are then befuddled and outraged when others contest our perceptions of truth and Reality.
We cluster in cliques of entangled perceptions and wage war on those who would dare challenge our convictions. We not only think we are right; we know we are right.
So does the other guy.
There will never be Peace on Earth and Good Will to all Creatures until we accept the inescapable conclusion we each exists in our own observer created Reality, and no two minds have the very same perspective, and therefore cannot have the very same perceptions of Reality.
We are fundamentally solipsist in our own minds and create our own Reality to exist in.
What one mind see as fact, another mind may see as fiction.
Reality is not only malleable, it is fundamentally interactive. It conforms to our expectations and our anxieties.
We cannot say one part of Reality is malleable and another part is not. We cannot exclude any part of Reality from being manipulate by our apprehensions.
Reality is Information processed by an Observer.
You are the Observer for your own Reality.
Quote from: cckeiser on July 18, 2012, 09:58:10 PM
Of course...everything below is just like my opinion dudes! 8)
From Poly-Solipsism:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/118067270898779712769/posts
"I think"
We...the human species, can and have argued ad infinitum over what we each think, with little to no consensus on just about anything. The history of human discourse gives testament to our solipsism. The fact that after 5000 years of searching for "The Truth" and there still is not a single point not in contention, attests to the elemental flaw in our endeavors.
Fundamentally we are all Solipsist within our own minds, and what we perceive to be The Truth we then assume must be The Truth for all. It is our own solipsism that has each of us trapped within our own minds creating our own Reality and blinding us to the essence of what The Truth really is. We assume the other creatures we perceive populating our Universe are part of our own Reality and therefore must also share in the truth that we ourselves perceive. We are then befuddled and outraged when others contest our perceptions of truth and Reality.
We cluster in cliques of entangled perceptions and wage war on those who would dare challenge our convictions. We not only think we are right; we know we are right.
So does the other guy.
There will never be Peace on Earth and Good Will to all Creatures until we accept the inescapable conclusion we each exists in our own observer created Reality, and no two minds have the very same perspective, and therefore cannot have the very same perceptions of Reality.
We are fundamentally solipsist in our own minds and create our own Reality to exist in.
What one mind see as fact, another mind may see as fiction.
Reality is not only malleable, it is fundamentally interactive. It conforms to our expectations and our anxieties.
We cannot say one part of Reality is malleable and another part is not. We cannot exclude any part of Reality from being manipulate by our apprehensions.
Reality is Information processed by an Observer.
You are the Observer for your own Reality.
You said it far more eloquently than I ever could have. May I have permission to quote you? Specifically:
QuoteReality is Information processed by an Observer.
Love it...
Quote from: Hominid on July 18, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
You said it far more eloquently than I ever could have. May I have permission to quote you? Specifically:
QuoteReality is Information processed by an Observer.
Love it...
Of course! I would be honored...8)
Quote from: cckeiser on July 19, 2012, 12:01:40 AM
Quote from: Hominid on July 18, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
You said it far more eloquently than I ever could have. May I have permission to quote you? Specifically:
QuoteReality is Information processed by an Observer.
Love it...
Of course! I would be honored...8)
Coitus? ;D
Quote from: cckeiser on July 19, 2012, 12:01:40 AM
Quote from: Hominid on July 18, 2012, 11:52:38 PM
You said it far more eloquently than I ever could have. May I have permission to quote you? Specifically:
QuoteReality is Information processed by an Observer.
Love it...
Of course! I would be honored...8)
Familiar with Ervin Laszlo's "Science and the Akashic Field"? A good read... Your google post enthralled me BTW.
QuoteCoitus? ;D
VAGINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Hominid on July 19, 2012, 12:30:25 AM
QuoteCoitus? ;D
VAGINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There we go! ;D
Been waiting for that! 8)
Quote from: Hominid on July 19, 2012, 12:28:30 AM
Familiar with Ervin Laszlo's "Science and the Akashic Field"? A good read... Your google post enthralled me BTW.
I have not heard of the Akashic Field...will look it up...thank you.
I am happy you enjoyed my g+ post! 8)
Well I heard a defender of faith reacting to criticism of his completely 100% literal interpretation of the Bible as in "you believe in a talking snake?!" etc with "well of course that is unbelievable to someone who doesn't believe in God. For God this would be simple This is nothing for God."
Translation: If you believe in the preposterous then the preposterous is simple believe in.
The dogma has been so codified and it's circularity so thoroughly developed that essentially criticism is impossible to a person who believes. The more outlandish the belief the more true it is. I mean you just can't argue with this mind set. It's astonishing really.
Even as you state the preposterousness that a undefined "being" or "conciousness" or who knows what this time, it changes depending on the day of the week I guess, created everything, I mean the universe, stuff that is at least as much as we know of, like a million light years in size. That the same creator then takes an active interest in the particular daily events of every single human's life. Even as you state the monumental delusional quality you can just feel the response cooking in the believers head. "BEHOLD THE MIRACULOUSNESS! BEHOLD HOW POWERFUL GOD IS".
I mean it's actually funny. The monumental preposterousness only stands as a statement on the unbelievable power of God as long as you buy the initial premise.
You just can not argue with this sort of mindset. It's truely like brainwashing.
Circular logic reinforced over and over and over till it's ingrained.
Quote from: BikerDude on July 19, 2012, 02:01:16 PM
Well I heard a defender of faith reacting to criticism of his completely 100% literal interpretation of the Bible as in "you believe in a talking snake?!" etc with "well of course that is unbelievable to someone who doesn't believe in God. For God this would be simple This is nothing for God."
Translation: If you believe in the preposterous then the preposterous is simple believe in.
The dogma has been so codified and it's circularity so thoroughly developed that essentially criticism is impossible to a person who believes. The more outlandish the belief the more true it is. I mean you just can't argue with this mind set. It's astonishing really.
Even as you state the preposterousness that a undefined "being" or "conciousness" or who knows what this time, it changes depending on the day of the week I guess, created everything, I mean the universe, stuff that is at least as much as we know of, like a million light years in size. That the same creator then takes an active interest in the particular daily events of every single human's life. Even as you state the monumental delusional quality you can just feel the response cooking in the believers head. "BEHOLD THE MIRACULOUSNESS! BEHOLD HOW POWERFUL GOD IS".
I mean it's actually funny. The monumental preposterousness only stands as a statement on the unbelievable power of God as long as you buy the initial premise.
You just can not argue with this sort of mindset. It's truely like brainwashing.
Circular logic reinforced over and over and over till it's ingrained.
That, coupled with the fact that they are on a divine mission to save mankind... they feel this divine spark... they believe they are the mouthpiece of supernatural imperatives. Of COURSE they are beyond all reasonable standards of judgement. They are sanctified by their mission!!!! A lot of ego involved actually. Ya have to leave them to their own devices. AND - not get irritated by them. Otherwise they've gotten under your skin. Took me a long time to not let that happen, especially after the pendulum swung the other direction, and I got out of that scene.
My favourite quote: There is nothing more sacred than truth itself.
Quote from: Hominid on July 19, 2012, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: BikerDude on July 19, 2012, 02:01:16 PM
Well I heard a defender of faith reacting to criticism of his completely 100% literal interpretation of the Bible as in "you believe in a talking snake?!" etc with "well of course that is unbelievable to someone who doesn't believe in God. For God this would be simple This is nothing for God."
Translation: If you believe in the preposterous then the preposterous is simple believe in.
The dogma has been so codified and it's circularity so thoroughly developed that essentially criticism is impossible to a person who believes. The more outlandish the belief the more true it is. I mean you just can't argue with this mind set. It's astonishing really.
Even as you state the preposterousness that a undefined "being" or "conciousness" or who knows what this time, it changes depending on the day of the week I guess, created everything, I mean the universe, stuff that is at least as much as we know of, like a million light years in size. That the same creator then takes an active interest in the particular daily events of every single human's life. Even as you state the monumental delusional quality you can just feel the response cooking in the believers head. "BEHOLD THE MIRACULOUSNESS! BEHOLD HOW POWERFUL GOD IS".
I mean it's actually funny. The monumental preposterousness only stands as a statement on the unbelievable power of God as long as you buy the initial premise.
You just can not argue with this sort of mindset. It's truely like brainwashing.
Circular logic reinforced over and over and over till it's ingrained.
That, coupled with the fact that they are on a divine mission to save mankind... they feel this divine spark... they believe they are the mouthpiece of supernatural imperatives. Of COURSE they are beyond all reasonable standards of judgement. They are sanctified by their mission!!!! A lot of ego involved actually. Ya have to leave them to their own devices. AND - not get irritated by them. Otherwise they've gotten under your skin. Took me a long time to not let that happen, especially after the pendulum swung the other direction, and I got out of that scene.
My favourite quote: There is nothing more sacred than truth itself.
I always felt that way but now I see it different. There must be a push back.
The arrogance can not go unanswered. It creeps in like a slow disease.
Our country has gotten sicker and sicker and fatter and fatter and lost more and more teeth and damn it, it's time for the rapture!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KlMWzKj4s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bccc4L4fQdI&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL3CBFBE84BE8589D9
Hillarious Youtube video... LMFAO
Quote from: Hominid on July 19, 2012, 03:12:59 PM
Quote from: BikerDude on July 19, 2012, 02:01:16 PM
Well I heard a defender of faith reacting to criticism of his completely 100% literal interpretation of the Bible as in "you believe in a talking snake?!" etc with "well of course that is unbelievable to someone who doesn't believe in God. For God this would be simple This is nothing for God."
Translation: If you believe in the preposterous then the preposterous is simple believe in.
The dogma has been so codified and it's circularity so thoroughly developed that essentially criticism is impossible to a person who believes. The more outlandish the belief the more true it is. I mean you just can't argue with this mind set. It's astonishing really.
Even as you state the preposterousness that a undefined "being" or "conciousness" or who knows what this time, it changes depending on the day of the week I guess, created everything, I mean the universe, stuff that is at least as much as we know of, like a million light years in size. That the same creator then takes an active interest in the particular daily events of every single human's life. Even as you state the monumental delusional quality you can just feel the response cooking in the believers head. "BEHOLD THE MIRACULOUSNESS! BEHOLD HOW POWERFUL GOD IS".
I mean it's actually funny. The monumental preposterousness only stands as a statement on the unbelievable power of God as long as you buy the initial premise.
You just can not argue with this sort of mindset. It's truely like brainwashing.
Circular logic reinforced over and over and over till it's ingrained.
That, coupled with the fact that they are on a divine mission to save mankind... they feel this divine spark... they believe they are the mouthpiece of supernatural imperatives. Of COURSE they are beyond all reasonable standards of judgement. They are sanctified by their mission!!!! A lot of ego involved actually. Ya have to leave them to their own devices. AND - not get irritated by them. Otherwise they've gotten under your skin. Took me a long time to not let that happen, especially after the pendulum swung the other direction, and I got out of that scene.
My favourite quote: There is nothing more sacred than truth itself.
That's the trouble with trying to reason against religion thousands of years old. But who knows, give dudeism a couple centuries, maybe we'll all be living like it is in Bill and Teds excellent adventure. :)
@BikerDude:
Nevertheless, I feel a bit queasy about this pushing back. Given that, a few years ago in the US, a group of Atheists tried to have Harry Potter banned because it "introduced children to the supernatural", the pendulum is starting to swing into a direction I cannot accept.
I see the "reason" front hardening into something just as stubborn and uptight as those they fight and quickly becoming unobjective and childish.
Now, this is just, like, my opinion, man, and I can totally see where you are coming from here. I am certainly not a defender of religious nonsense.
If there is a god or a higher intelligence that crafted the universe, it'd probably give a flying fart about who goes to bed with whom here on earth.
But trying to outlaw or ban something usually achieves absolutely nothing.
Instead of attacking religion, we should focus on teaching young people to be critical, independent thinkers.
I think many people in the so-called "new Atheism" movement are making the very same mistake as their enemies: they feel the need to "save"people, if only from stupidity. Problem is: the base assumption once again is that even educated humans are unable to see the faults in something if they are not pointed out to them, preferably in the most insulting way possible.
I firmly believe that if we just earnestly try to teach people to think for themselves, they will make better and informed choices without having any worldview rammed down their throats.
Even people like Richard Dawkins should learn to abide a bit more. I personally prefer him when he's talking about how awesome evolution and life is instead of ranting against religion.
Hatred of any kind makes people ugly.
Again, just my opinion. Have a wonderful day, dudes :)
Back to the question of "Does debating accomplish anything?" ..............
Yes, it gives me more reason to drink beer, eat pizza, help my lady friend conceive and slack off. ;D
It's the simple things that work.
Does debating accomplish anything?
So I have been thinking this over for awhile. I had a reply for you, but was not sure if I really wanted to get into the whole thing all over again.
But ok, the short answer is yes. But it may not be for the reason you think.
First the background...I'm an Idealist. It would take way too long to try and explain that and what it means to what I am bout to say, so I will not even bother attempting to do so. If you do not know already...and you just need to know....look it up!
Ok, so why does debating help...simply because everything that enters the mind stays in the mind. It may not be consciously remembered, but it buzzes around in there and like the butterfly affect it will become part of the reality of that mind.
By introducing data in a debate that is new to a mind, it changes that mind. All information...all data...changes our reality. Presenting information contrary to a set of beliefs will cause trauma in that reality...it may not be at first apparent, but sooner or later all information is woven into the fabric from which we all weave our own reality.
If I tell you something you did not know before...I have changed your reality...I have moved you from one perspective to a different perspective. In doing so my words have changed you and your reality.
Of course yelling at someone and being a dick will only cause the other person to reject what ever it is you are trying to communicate. A civil discourse is of the utmost importance...even a contentious debate can be effective though.
I am going to beg your forgiveness in advance for what I am about to write...it came to me in a dream while i was debating with myself on whether I was going to reply here or not.
Before we begin I would like to try an experiment to better illustrate what I believe we must consider when we enter into discussions of various natures.
To do this we first must select something....some object, that is familiar to all involved. It can be most anything, but it should be a common object...the more colorful the better. At first I thought perhaps a bowling ball, but not everyone is all that familiar with all the different types and colors of all the different bowling balls. I think most would probably imagine the old all black balls from years ago, on maybe the red and black balls from 30 or so years ago...perhaps a beach ball would be better? I believe almost everyone has at least seen a beach ball with red, blue, yellow, green and white panels, or maybe some of the newer fashion beach balls with Disney characters or Disco type images on them. I think I remember seeing an over large beach ball that was transparent with glitter imbedded in it's surface. We need this object to get the mind of our audience to begin imaging and remembering. The more we talk about the beach ball or other common object the more images the mind will generate. It will begin seeing the beach ball as it once existed....floating lazily in a swimming pool...or resting on the grass near the pool...its soft plastic surface reflecting sunlight with the green grass around it...with maybe the smell of the chlorine from the pool? Or perhaps on a sandy beach at the ocean with the smell of the salty ocean in the nostrils and the sound of seagulls crying overhead....the feel of the sand under foot...and the feel of the soft plastic on your hands?
The objective is to open your audiences mind by calling up memories of sights, sounds, smells and feels...the more sense memories you can trigger the more open the mind will become.
The memory triggers opens the mind of the audience and establishes a line of communication.
But it must be done in an agreeable manner...not confrontational. You do not want to get into a shouting match, or seem condescending. Sneering; even in words will not help either. That will only create discomfort and cause your audience to erect barriers in their minds blocking the line of communication you are trying to establish. You must maintain a friendly and comforting ?voice? and demeanor.
Once you have set up the comfort zone you want to introduce the 3 affirmations...these are three questions or statements your audience will agree to. The objective here is to get your audience into a receptive frame of mind by thinking...Yes....Yes....Yes.
After the 3 affirmations you can introduce the new concept that you wish your audience to accept.
And right about now you should be hearing my words inside your mind. You're reading my words with your eyes, but you are hearing them in your mind. Your mind is talking to itself and if you listen to yourself read you can hear your mind talking...it may be my words in your mind, but it's in your own voice. The same familiar voice you always hear and it's comforting...relaxing really. If you listen closely and focus you will filter out all the outside voices and noises....they will fade into silence till all you can hear is the comforting voice in your mind. All the tautness and stress in your neck and shoulders is now fading away...you fell a lightness....a release bathing your neck and shoulders. It's now slowly working its way down your back and flowing down your legs...you are floating in pure comfort....you are at peace with the Universe.
Please Do No Harm.
Ok.....you can wake up now.....8)
Well articulated dude... you made me forget what day it is!
Yeah, it accomplishes something: it hardens already held opinions more firmly and increases disdain for others. Am I wrong? Ok.
Quote from: biodegraded on August 21, 2012, 04:09:12 PM
Yeah, it accomplishes something: it hardens already held opinions more firmly and increases disdain for others. Am I wrong? Ok.
biodegraded dude, welcome to our esteemed beach community and dudetopia. Good to have you here, bar's over there. Grab a place on the rug and abide.
DB: thanks, man. Got any Kahlua?
Quote from: biodegraded on August 21, 2012, 04:31:21 PM
DB: thanks, man. Got any Kahlua?
Fuckin' eh, bar's over there, help yourself, mang. ;)
Quote from: Hominid on August 15, 2012, 08:58:04 PM
Well articulated dude... you made me forget what day it is!
Quote from: cckeiser on August 15, 2012, 08:22:28 PM
Does debating accomplish anything?
So I have been thinking this over for awhile. I had a reply for you, but was not sure if I really wanted to get into the whole thing all over again.
But ok, the short answer is yes. But it may not be for the reason you think.
First the background...I'm an Idealist...
SNIP...
a release bathing your neck and shoulders. It's now slowly working its way down your back and flowing down your legs...you are floating in pure comfort....you are at peace with the Universe.
Please Do No Harm.
Ok.....you can wake up now.....8)
cc Dude, those are good words, had to read it twice to take more in. Well said. (http://dudeism.com/smf/Themes/classic/images/post/thumbup.gif)
Well I don't know dude.Maybe we should have a debate or something.