There is a guy who primarily lives in Utah, by the name of Daniel Suelo, who has been living without money for over ten years now. While it moneyless living may seem odd, I think he fits perfectly as a great in history because of his philosophies and reasoning behind doing it.
Check out his web page (https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/) and blog (http://www.zerocurrency.blogspot.com/) and you'll see what I mean.
Quote from: RevJason83 on April 23, 2012, 01:33:08 AM
There is a guy who primarily lives in Utah, by the name of Daniel Suelo, who has been living without money for over ten years now. While it moneyless living may seem odd, I think he fits perfectly as a great in history because of his philosophies and reasoning behind doing it.
Check out his web page (https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/) and blog (http://www.zerocurrency.blogspot.com/) and you'll see what I mean.
Interesting website, a dude like dude as far as I can tell. But I had to laugh at the last thing he says on his home page.......
"Please understand I can't always answer all emails."That's probably because he can't always get to a free internet connection. Which brings me to my point; his webpage is hosted on Google ... https://sites.
google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/ ...so I ask your opinion; is he REALLY living without money, or is it just that someone else is paying for what he has and uses? Because clearly Google is paying for his website since he is hosting it on their servers for free, and someone is paying for those web servers, the power to keep them running and the staff of IT dudes who admin the system at Google. Is he really "cash and debt free" or merely living off other people and a form of welfare?
I love his email address....
freemeansnomoney@gmail.com Or is it "free because I HAVE no money?" ;D
IMHO of course. 8)
I like your thinking DB.
Not so much living on no money, more living on your money, not mine.
Money shouldn't be an issue, which is the sad thing. It's an illusion. Money itself is worthless, it's only representative of worth.
I don't get the idea of obsessing over money. I don't see the need to have more than my fair share for the work I do and the things I contribute, and I don't see the big whoop about not having any at all.
Because money's an illusion, not having money is hardly a great achievement. All you need in it's stead are the actual resources the money is meant to represent, which is still something of value. Without money, but with resources, you can survive. Without resources you cannot survive. Simple.
This guy has no money, but he must have resources. I mean, if I had my own home, build next to a natural running water supply, with land enough to grow crops to eat, next to a wooded area and a supply of tools and essentials to get me started, I could live without money.
Conversely, you can do it in an urban environment if you can find someone to barter food for services, or somesuch.
Personally, I'll stick to my monetary system. It may be an illusion, but it's much easier than asking to get paid in food for my services and having to work at the utility companies to get my power and water :)
Quote from: DigitalBuddha on April 23, 2012, 03:38:22 AM
..so I ask your opinion; is he REALLY living without money, or is it just that someone else is paying for what he has and uses? Because clearly Google is paying for his website since he is hosting it on their servers for free, and someone is paying for those web servers, the power to keep them running and the staff of IT dudes who admin the system at Google. Is he really "cash and debt free" or merely living off other people and a form of welfare?
I think that while he does utilize things that require money in the background, the overall effect of his "example", for lack of a better term, isn't lost. IMHO he's trying to show us that we can live more simply without all the complicated, wasteful, unbalanced, and sometimes straight messed up things we deal with on a daily basis. I have no clue whether his goal is necessarily to create a revolution or just to be an example of how we can perhaps improve ourselves and society to an extent, saying basically that we should give more freely instead of relying solely on money.
As far as being free of money, while we live in a world where money is the dominating force, I doubt anyone will ever fully escape it's influence. I'm not even sure if it'll ever go out of use either.
Quote from: RevJason83 on April 23, 2012, 07:33:02 PM
IMHO he's trying to show us that we can live more simply without all the complicated, wasteful, unbalanced, and sometimes straight messed up things we deal with on a daily basis...saying basically that we should give more freely instead of relying solely on money.
As far as being free of money, while we live in a world where money is the dominating force, I doubt anyone will ever fully escape it's influence. I'm not even sure if it'll ever go out of use either.
I agree his existence relies on other people earning money, even if he does not.
Quotehis existence relies on other people earning money
As do all wandering Buddhist monks in Asia. This is not a valid argument. He lives in a money free zone of his own making. Whether other people wish to give him "free" stuff is up to them.
Those charity givers had to make the money to buy the rice to feed the monks etc....the monks live in a money free world of their own making too.
Quote from: RevJason83 on April 23, 2012, 01:33:08 AM
...who has been living without money for over ten years now...
Quote from: Caesar dude on April 24, 2012, 05:25:52 PM
As do all wandering Buddhist monks in Asia. This is not a valid argument. He lives in a money free zone of his own making. Whether other people wish to give him "free" stuff is up to them.
But the monks are not claiming to live without money they readily admit to living on charity (other peoples money).
Quote from: meekon5 on April 24, 2012, 04:06:27 AM
...his existence relies on other people earning money, even if he does not.
And finally
Quote
I Know It Is Possible To Live With Zero Money, Abundantly
From his own web site.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying he's doing a bad thing, I'm just saying he isn't living without money.
Like the Buddhist Monks he is enhancing other peoples Karma by allowing them to give him things (eg web space, Internet connection). Like the Buddhist Monks someone else is undertaking the transaction for him. He just doesn't earn the money or hoard it like the rest of us do.
I accept the cow (bull) is killed for me to have the steak I cooked for dinner tonight
Hmmmmm just had a peek at his website. It stinks.
:( :(
I'll look next time before I leap.
I also did not say he was doing a bad thing, I just don't see the big whoop.
Money is not bad, it's people's desire for it and misuse of it that's bad.
Socialism and charity can go a long way to balancing out the negative issues of money. CAN being the operative word, of course. Enlightenment against greed would be the other best weapon, but, ho-hum :)
But, as I said above, money is an illusion meant to represent resource. Even without money, you still need resources, and you can't gain equality without money still, as not everyone has the same resources available, so eliminating money solves nothing, IMHO of course.
I say make peace with money and treat it properly, don't get bend out of shape that it's either the be-all-and-end-all or that it's the root of all evil. It's most certainly neither of those things, but a fucking long shot!
Yeah, what Ed said.
The money is not the issue here dude, it's how you got it, and what you do with it that matters.
What has every one in a tizzy is how some people have gotten a ton of money through less than enlightened means(predatory lending, scams, market manipulation and defrauding investors), then some use that money to coerce the powers that be to infringe on liberty or fair play. No body is angry at Harrison Ford for being rich, but the CEOs of some of the banks and corps have not made the world better while getting obscene profits for causing mass suffering.
Money is important, using it wisely or skilfully is even more important.
Quote from: revgms on April 26, 2012, 09:32:28 AM
No body is angry at Harrison Ford for being rich, but the CEOs of some of the banks and corps have not made the world better while getting obscene profits for causing mass suffering.
Money is important, using it wisely or skilfully is even more important.
Damn straight, GMS!
Without money in the picture it's the matter of a man who's worked hard all his life mining for tin and amasses a good load of resources to trade, compared with a man who sits on his arse whilst slaves mine for him. It's a woman who's spent every waking hour picking and weaving cotton into cloth compared with a gang of marauders who sweep around the place taking from others.
Money = resources, and as I said in my first post, you can't live without resources. Even berries growing in the woods are resources and have a value. If you can use it, it's got a value, and if you need it, it's got a massive value!
Of course, the matter of value is a whole other topic, such as the value of life (meat production, pet ownership, slave trading, war-for-profit, etc). Still, I'm no economist...
The thing about taking money out of the equation is... none of us would be having this conversation, as it's the monetary system that makes computing, the internet and movie production possible. Take away money, you have no Dudeist forums :)
So, whilst money might not make the world go round, it makes civilisation tick!
My issue with money is that I used to have a lot of it and although I knew I earned it but was priviliged to have it I worked damned hard for it. 14 to 18 hour days 6 days a week for 8 years.
Now I SPENT that money and travelled extensively, First or business class all over the world. I ate in the best restaurants and stayed in the finest of places. I was spoiled rotten during those years and it was very clear that the more money I had the more things were given to me for free....Flight and hotel upgrades, free meals, discount vouchers etc. I even used to get free suits and shirts after I'd had a couple hand made.
The money certainly ensured a lifestyle full of fine dining and lots of "friends" of the same calibre but all the normal problems were there...and it's true it doesn't buy happiness.
I came back to the UK with my 3 year old son because that was what was important at the time. I became a single father living off state benefits but I was truly happy for the first time in my life...no deadlines other than play school, no worries about being in one place when I should have been three thousand miles away in the other direction...no bosses looking over my shoulder waffling about budgets and market forces.
I was living on 95 pounds every two weeks with which I had to feed and clothe my son and I. Pay rent, put petrol in my 150 pound car and exist. It was a struggle but everyday was an adventure and just being with my little boy 24/7 was reward enough for any hardship.
Things change. I am now back on that corporate ladder...rising slowly through a big company...hey I started at the bottom and am now a couple of rungs higher...maybe one day I will be back where the money is but I don't yearn for it.
Money...pah! If it were a fair exchange then the guys who do the graft would get more than the guys who sit on their arses....but then again if it wasn't for the guys who sit on their arses having lunch with other guys who sit on their arses and decide where the grafters graft....there would be no business. I guess. ;)
I hate to admit it, but I depend on others myself...does that make me undude?
I see the point of humor here, but I also see everyones own experience.
I agree that he is leeching, without apparant knowledge of it. But if we grow a garden of flowers, do we expect them to fight for survival or do we care for each plant individually?
life is mysterious and a blessing. If you believe in any purpose or mathmatical physics based meaning to existence, than everything has a right to exist the way it can grow, we don't go out and study the best way to kill of leeches do we? In some regard they serve purpose.
I hate to say this on my favorite forum, but each and every one of you is a parasite.
You might be associating it with money that is earned by your individual efforts, but you wouldn't be here without the back bone of someone elses labor, or the beauty of life on earth, or the root of energy itself.
Contribute action or thought, or a combination, it's when you destroy with intent that is rather...undude
Quote from: meekon5 on April 23, 2012, 12:56:27 PM
I like your thinking DB.
Not so much living on no money, more living on your money, not mine.
Yeah, that was pretty much my impression. We all use a few things online that free here and there, like this website, but an entire life style doing so bothers me. Sounds a lot like taking, but not giving back.
i see your reasoning DB. maybe there is a point in which giving back becomes a priority? When you can, or how?
Now that I have that in mind, what can we dudes do for each other?
Quote from: Koog-meister on April 26, 2012, 11:11:26 PM
i see your reasoning DB. maybe there is a point in which giving back becomes a priority? When you can, or how?
Now that I have that in mind, what can we dudes do for each other?
One dude said "take less, give more." Sometimes I can't help but think that a philosophy like that could solve a lot of the world's problems.
Quote from: Koog-meister on April 26, 2012, 10:44:33 PM
I hate to say this on my favorite forum, but each and every one of you is a parasite.
You might be associating it with money that is earned by your individual efforts, but you wouldn't be here without the back bone of someone elses labor, or the beauty of life on earth, or the root of energy itself.
Contribute action or thought, or a combination, it's when you destroy with intent that is rather...undude
Oh yeah, I'm fully aware of my place in universal harmony. Only, I'd not quite say parasite, I'd say symbiont. If we're all leaching, who/what are we all leaching from?
Ok, some people are parasites, like a few of the people in my list of examples in my second post, but it's not a world built on some giving and some taking, it's more of a case of most exchanging. Society is a symbiotic relationship where we all exchange ideas, knowledge, resources and aid.
I'm not leaching off of electricity company, I give them money in exchange for their service, just as my employers give me money in exchange for mine. We all play our part, but in different ways. Like my article on Dudeciples that spoke out to a lot of people on living life your own way, I said that even if you're not working you can contribute. I used Meekon's example about the Buddhist monks that take donations in their begging bowls but give back spiritually. So a Dude accepts a free drink, he can give back with a smile, a warm wish or a funny story. That's symbiosis, exchange, barter... tit-for-tat even ;)
So this guy lives without money, he still lives as part of the system. He still interacts with the world, and he started his life with clothes he bought and other resources he paid for (or someone else did). He's not living in a shack in the woods he built with fallen logs, eating berries he found in the woods and wearing leaves. He's using a system of shared and exchanged resources. He may have been gifted things, like tools and whathave you, but someone paid for those, either with money or with resources.
@Ceaser:
Yeah, I agree that money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you life. That 95pound you got was buying you and your son life, and yeah it was a struggle at such a small amount, I know, but you've gone through some tough motions over the years. You spent a long time struggling, a while enjoying life and then back to struggling again.
I don't think you can blame any of that on money, it's all circumstance and decision. So, whilst I sympathise with the hard times you've been through it was your choice how to spend the money you had when you had it in abundance. You can't say the money made you, nor did the people. People might try and influence you, but money is just a thing, an abstract concept, a token. We all make decisions, for better or for worse, when circumstance allows us.
Sure, life would be better if we just had the money we needed to go about life each and every day, but sometimes we have more, and sometimes we have less and we have to ride that wave.
I for one am not concerned about an excess of money, because there's not much I want out of life (yeah, I really AM that boring, as Meekon will no doubt vouch for). But I am concerned about not having enough to live. But, as I said before, if I had no money but I had resources to live, I'd be just fine.
So let's ignore money, because it's an illusion, and convert it into the actual resources it is. 1p = 1 pea, 1pound = one pound of potatoes :P Resources is life, and if resources if money, so be it...
As long as people realise and make peace with it, and don't base their life on acquiring more than they need without giving back, we'll achieve a more harmonious symbiosis. Well, I can dream, can't I? ;D
Maybe , he just doesn't wanna be bumped into a higher uh uh y'know...
I think Ben Franklin nailed it for part of this understanding when he wrote:
"All property, indeed, except the savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his match-coat, and other little acquisitions absolutely necessary for his subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public convention . . . All the property that is necessay to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of; but all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the public, who by their laws have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it whenever the welfare of the public shall demand such a disposition".
(Letter to Robert Morris, Dec. 25th 1783; cf. Bigelow, John, ed.,The Works of Benjamin Franklin, New York, 1904)
I see humanity as a single organism and money is its blood, every organ has a role, sure the being can live with out some organs but it is not complete, and life is best served by having all its organs functioning. Imagine if the heart decided it was too important to share blood with the liver, or the lungs decide they didn't need to send oxygen to the brain because it was being an asshole, and the asshole decided to quit because the testicles were being dicks. The being would be all fucked up. And that's where we are today, circulation is all messed up and we have massive blood clots.
Quote from: revgms on April 27, 2012, 08:58:14 AM
I think Ben Franklin nailed it for part of this understanding when he wrote:
"All property, indeed, except the savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his match-coat, and other little acquisitions absolutely necessary for his subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public convention . . . All the property that is necessay to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of; but all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the public, who by their laws have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it whenever the welfare of the public shall demand such a disposition".
(Letter to Robert Morris, Dec. 25th 1783; cf. Bigelow, John, ed.,The Works of Benjamin Franklin, New York, 1904)
For a man of famously "peculiar" tastes, who also loved the French more than the English, I have to say that I've always found Franklin to be an exceedingly wise man (apart from the Francophilia ;)).
I could give someone a great day on my sailboat
Quote from: revgms on April 27, 2012, 08:58:14 AM
I think Ben Franklin nailed it for part of this understanding when he wrote:
"All property, indeed, except the savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his match-coat, and other little acquisitions absolutely necessary for his subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public convention . . . All the property that is necessay to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of; but all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the public, who by their laws have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it whenever the welfare of the public shall demand such a disposition".
(Letter to Robert Morris, Dec. 25th 1783; cf. Bigelow, John, ed.,The Works of Benjamin Franklin, New York, 1904)
I see humanity as a single organism and money is its blood, every organ has a role, sure the being can live with out some organs but it is not complete, and life is best served by having all its organs functioning. Imagine if the heart decided it was too important to share blood with the liver, or the lungs decide they didn't need to send oxygen to the brain because it was being an asshole, and the asshole decided to quit because the testicles were being dicks. The being would be all fucked up. And that's where we are today, circulation is all messed up and we have massive blood clots.
All the property that is necessay to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right...The only problem I have with that statement of Franklin's is who decides what is "necessary?" In other words take a look at his list of "necessary" items... "savage's temporary cabin, his bow, his match-coat, and other little acquisitions" ...he left out an automobile, electricity, telephone, etc. That is to say "necessary" is only a point of view, highly subjective and definitely changes over time.
Having society, or dude forbid, a government deciding what is "necessary," is and has been a fucking disaster! It's called communism and only succeeds in the distribution of poverty to the masses and dangerous power to the government (of course always shielding such lists from the elite who do the deciding).
I think it best to leave the deciding to the individual as to what is "necessary" and as long as said individual is about the business of accumulating his or her list of "necessary" items by offering honest value to society, I see no problem with a subjective list unique to each person. You see, in a free society one can only accumulate his or her list by helping others accumulate theirs; i.e., we all benefit from freedom from "necessary" lists imposed on us from "above."
Who was it that said?... "any government big enough to give you anything you want, will take everything you have."
Forgot to add...IMHO. ;)
Government is not the only entity to take by force, in the absence of government you have feudalism, where warlords come and take it any way.
Not that you can be complacent in letting government get out of hand, but you stand a better chance against an elected gov then you do against gangs.
The other side is, with out society there is no wealth, that's the point, if you want to get your product safely to market who do you trust to gaurantee that, the US government or the Hell's Angels? Make no mistake, it a purely libertarian state that's who would run the show. End of the day you can not trust anyone or any thing.
It's about balance, no one wants to be ruled by John Galt anymore than they want to be ruled by Stalin, it's some where in the middle that we are looking for.
maybe parasite is a strong word, i like symbiotic. I guess u dudes are right about bummin.
Maybe this Free-means-no-money dude gives back with ideas and good conversation, haha.
""I see humanity as a single organism and money is its blood, every organ has a role, sure the being can live with out some organs but it is not complete, and life is best served by having all its organs functioning. Imagine if the heart decided it was too important to share blood with the liver, or the lungs decide they didn't need to send oxygen to the brain because it was being an asshole, and the asshole decided to quit because the testicles were being dicks. The being would be all fucked up. And that's where we are today, circulation is all messed up and we have massive blood clots.""
-makes a lot of sense
ima take this moment to mention if i ever leave a comment it's always in my humble opinion; i know IMHO is only 4 letters, but having to remind myself to leave that seems like too much fuckin work. :D
btw sailing dude. boats are awesome, sail on dude
Using money for what it is is not a bad thing IMHO. The gross accumulation is where we fall down IMO
I saw a documentary about a guy in Germany that lives without money, by the name of Raphael Fellmer. He lives with his wife and kid in a guys house, doenst pay rent, but helps him in and around to house to justify his living there. He collects food from trashcans behind supermarkets. They throw away so much stuff that is perfectly fine every evening, so he doenst seem to have any problems with that. If he needs something he offers something in exchange or just works for the person that owns what he needs.
Of course this lifestyle doesnt work if everybody does ist, but he says he wants to be an example against the waistfulness of our society.
I wouldnt see him as a parasite, since he just takes things that society has no use for. I would see it the other way around, because everybody that consumes a lot, drives a car, etc. takes more ressources then him, exploits the planet, which could be interpreted as characteristics of a parasite.
Quote from: DerFaulenzer on July 01, 2012, 09:23:03 AM
I saw a documentary about a guy in Germany that lives without money, by the name of Raphael Fellmer. He lives with his wife and kid in a guys house, doenst pay rent, but helps him in and around to house to justify his living there. He collects food from trashcans behind supermarkets. They throw away so much stuff that is perfectly fine every evening, so he doenst seem to have any problems with that. If he needs something he offers something in exchange or just works for the person that owns what he needs.
Of course this lifestyle doesnt work if everybody does ist, but he says he wants to be an example against the waistfulness of our society.
I wouldnt see him as a parasite, since he just takes things that society has no use for. I would see it the other way around, because everybody that consumes a lot, drives a car, etc. takes more ressources then him, exploits the planet, which could be interpreted as characteristics of a parasite.
Everyone did live like that at one time...it's known as the Batter System.
Welcome to oir nice quiet beach community dude! 8)