http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2011/08/20110824_fa_01.mp3?dl=1
OMG!
That's fucking frightening.
Are you suggesting this is how we start to move with Dudeism?
Take over politics and business then rise up and roll over the capitalist system?
Come the revolution!
Dudeminionism.
We need to Dudecise the demons from this unDudely world!
ROLF
Yeh we were going to have a revolution but went bowling instead!
I read about these nut jobs in Rolling Stone, scary shit mang.
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 08:04:10 AM
OMG!
That's fucking frightening.
Are you suggesting this is how we start to move with Dudeism?
Take over politics and business then rise up and roll over the capitalist system?
Come the revolution!
How in God's name do you possibly get that?
Good God no. These people are nut jobs. And they have huge traction in politics here.
Michelle Backman is a real "legitimate" candidate and she is 100% in this group.
Mike Huckabee is also. Each presidential election it gets weirder and weirder.
We are in serious danger of going in a very bad direction.
Another jaw dropping thing to check out the book "The Family" You are from England so I doubt it would be of any real interest but it's pretty frightening.
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060560053/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
Interview with the author.
http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2009/11/20091124_fa_01.mp3?dl=1
Quote from: BikerDude on August 25, 2011, 08:46:19 AM
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 08:04:10 AM
OMG!
That's fucking frightening.
Are you suggesting this is how we start to move with Dudeism?
Take over politics and business then rise up and roll over the capitalist system?
Come the revolution!
How in God's name do you possibly get this?
Good God no. These people are nut jobs. And they have huge traction in politics here.
Michelle Backman is a real "legitimate" candidate and she is 100% in this group.
Mike Huckabee is also. Each presidential election it gets weirder and weirder.
We are in serious danger of going in a very bad direction.
Is it me or is there a sudden drastic drop in the level of humour on this forum recently?
Look I know Cakes spat the dummy and stomped off (a shame but if that's how he feels then that is his business), but my basic premise is humour in my posts.
As for:
Quote from: BikerDude on August 25, 2011, 08:46:19 AM
Another jaw dropping thing to check out the book "The Family" You are from England so I doubt it would be of any real interest but it's pretty frightening....
Sitting here in England the US is obviously less of a central theme to my daily deliberations than it would be if I were actually sitting there, but I am aware that we hang by a gossamer thread between both the US and mainland Europe (I use the phrase particularly there as we have been a part of Europe for much longer than most of my countrymen would like to admit).
I personally have great interest in the nature and development of the US political system as it very much influences the UK directions. Also I studied polatics as part of my Degree and continue to have an interest.
You can probably read in many of my posts I personally am not against Christians, but do find many of it's flavours very distasteful.
The major problem with apocalyptic religions is that when the foretold fall doesn't occur they tend to want to make it happen, and if these people are as embedded into the US system as this article suggests then they may pull the whole of the US economy down with them.
Even more (or possibly equally) worrying is the development and acceptance of a number of Fascist candidates in the Mainland EU.
There are days when I do wonder if we are not actually sitting on the cusp of the collapse of the entire western civilization.
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 09:13:28 AM
Is it me or is there a sudden drastic drop in the level of humour on this forum recently?
well, i laughed (quietly, since everyone is still asleep in these here parts) when you proposed revolution ;) perhaps you have to go back to the blinding practice of ;D inserting ;D smilies ;D to ;D indicate ;D your ;D making ;D a ;D funny ;D ?
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 09:13:28 AM
There are days when I do wonder if we are not actually sitting on the cusp of the collapse of the entire western civilization.
my feeling is, we are in the actual midst of collapse, and have been for some time-- but it's a can't see the forest for the trees thing.
Quote
There are days when I do wonder if we are not actually sitting on the cusp of the collapse of the entire western civilization.
I think much of it will change to something like fascism or some type of religious / corporate state.
I doubt western civilization will collapse but it may become something a lot less free. And probably
knock the living crap out of the rest of the civilized and uncivilized world on the way to it.
This is our concern dude.
The Chinese will have taken over before that happens. In fact they will use the religious/fascist in fighting as a distraction as they buy the whole rug out from underneath us all. ;D
Oh and on the continual topic of "moving Dudeism forward" one thing that we do probably need to do is be somewhat clear about our views of "Religion" overall. I think much of the reaction that we get from others has a lot to do with the perception (or observation) of a impiety and lack of respect for other religions inherit in the frivolous nature of Dudeism. Much like the "Church of the flying spaghetti monster" etc.
In my case I have very little respect for pretty much any organized religions. And the ones that I manage some respect for are those that don't require buying any mumbo jumbo like the virgin birth and burning bushes and stuff.
You see I can already hear that we by and large don't dig organized religion and don't buy most of it but we Abide it. But you see that's the rub. For "them" that's not enough. They can't abide that and by implication can't abide us. I doubt there is a lot of Abiding going on in someplace like Suadi Arabia or Iran where they might waterboard you because of yer shirt or something.
So you see this is where the rubber meats the road.
Sure you could carry "Abiding" all the way to passive resistance but I admit I wouldn't make it even half way there. I don't believe the Dude was Ghandi and I know I'm not.
Accross this line ....
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 09:32:03 AM
The Chinese will have taken over before that happens. In fact they will use the religious/fascist in fighting as a distraction as they buy the whole rug out from underneath us all. ;D
I doubt it. As I've said they won't go quietly.
I firmly believe that the "true believers" would pull the temple down on there own heads before they would allow "godlessness" and communism to triumph. Heck they positively long for the end of the world. You think they are gonna bat an eye at all out thermo nuclear war. Hell no they'd hail the very nut that goes ahead as the second coming of Jesus.
It really is that bad.
On the point of revolution, I see a Dudeist Revolution as an oxymoron any way, much like the revolution we allegedly had in the UK (late 1700-1800's), it rained so everyone went home (I don't know how much of that is apocryphal, but it makes my point.
Quote from: BikerDude on August 25, 2011, 09:39:33 AM
I doubt it. As I've said they won't go quietly.
I firmly believe that the "true believers" would pull the temple down on there own heads before they would allow "godlessness" and communism to triumph. Heck they positively long for the end of the world. You think they are gonna bat an eye all out thermo nuclear war. Hell no they'd hail the very nut that goes ahead as the second coming of Jesus.
It really is that bad.
I know what you mean about the christians not giving up, imagine a whole cuntry going the way of the
Branch Davidians (http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_branc.htm)? But on the subject of china taking over the world:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23517837-how-chinas-taking-over-africa-and-why-the-west-should-be-very-worried.do
and:
http://people.howstuffworks.com/china-taking-over-world.htm
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 09:44:58 AM
On the point of revolution, I see a Dudeist Revolution as an oxymoron any way, much like the revolution we allegedly had in the UK (late 1700-1800's), it rained so everyone went home (I don't know how much of that is apocryphal, but it makes my point.
Ditto.
Dudeism would disappear in the face of conditions that truly warrant revolution. By definition revolution is deciding that some things can not be abided.
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 09:48:48 AM
Quote from: BikerDude on August 25, 2011, 09:39:33 AM
I doubt it. As I've said they won't go quietly.
I firmly believe that the "true believers" would pull the temple down on there own heads before they would allow "godlessness" and communism to triumph. Heck they positively long for the end of the world. You think they are gonna bat an eye all out thermo nuclear war. Hell no they'd hail the very nut that goes ahead as the second coming of Jesus.
It really is that bad.
I know what you mean about the christians not giving up, imagine a whole cuntry going the way of the Branch Davidians (http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_branc.htm)? But on the subject of china taking over the world:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23517837-how-chinas-taking-over-africa-and-why-the-west-should-be-very-worried.do
You don't have to go so far as cults. Just look at the dark corners of many totally above board religions.
Or even the light corners of things like Pentacostalism.
If you don't have metaphysical claims, are you a religion?
We make no claims to anything "mystical", does that mean we are not a religion? Or is the concept of religiosity compatible with a community that is coherent through a shared world view?
Clearly these wackos are a religion that has a world view, but are we a world view that has religion?
I am not sure we are a religion, I also don't think Zen is a religion or Taoism, there is no "revelations" in them, it is all observational not esoteric offerings of a god-being.
Quote from: revgms on August 25, 2011, 09:54:56 AM
If you don't have metaphysical claims, are you a religion?
We make no claims to anything "mystical", does that mean we are not a religion? Or is the concept of religiosity compatible with a community that is coherent through a shared world view?
Clearly these wackos are a religion that has a world view, but are we a world view that has religion?
I am not sure we are a religion, I also don't think Zen is a religion or Taoism, there is no "revelations" in them, it is all observational not esoteric offerings of a god-being.
Then we get stuck with
what is a religion (http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=hypocraphal&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest#pq=chinese+taking+over+the+world&hl=en&cp=14&gs_id=56&xhr=t&q=what+is+a+religion&pf=p&sclient=psy&client=opera&hs=hDb&rls=en&channel=suggest&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=what+is+a+reli&aq=0&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c0015954df40ef81&biw=1246&bih=739)?
I have always believed we are a spiritual movement. Yes this is semantics but it's in line with "What is a religion?"
I gave a lecture on modern Paganism here at the
museum (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/), and my first ten to fifteen minutes was trying to define Paganism, I eventually had to stand with "This is what I define as Paganism, and am going to talk about that!"
This is quiet a good link on the subject:
http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/your-rights/religion-and-belief/what-is-a-religion/
I am running the Religion and Belief group here at the museum, unfortunately it is mostly christians but they are not that bad a lot.
The problem with Christianity is it's populated with people, I love people, but sometimes I just can't abide by what they do or believe.
The fellow who was on O'Riely, when Billy boy said "tide comes in tide goes out", was saying that a vast majority of Christians don't actually buy the shit the church is selling. But then you get the groups like these.
Quote from: revgms on August 25, 2011, 10:13:53 AM
...The fellow who was on O'Riely, when Billy boy said "tide comes in tide goes out", was saying that a vast majority of Christians don't actually buy the shit the church is selling. But then you get the groups like these.
Unfortunately "Mob" psychology is very different from personal psychology, put a bunch of christians high on the love of god in a room together and their likely to start "sanctifying" anything they think is out of place (and causing a dreadful mess in the process).
Quote from: BikerDude on August 25, 2011, 07:56:22 AM
http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2011/08/20110824_fa_01.mp3?dl=1
Sorry dude, but that's a download. I do not down load anything. Can you send a link to a web site or something? What does it say?
There are bad people claiming to be Christians who want to rule the world for Jeebus. Think Christian Taliban.
Quote from: cckeiser on August 25, 2011, 10:54:36 AM
Quote from: BikerDude on August 25, 2011, 07:56:22 AM
http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2011/08/20110824_fa_01.mp3?dl=1
Sorry dude, but that's a download. I do not down load anything. Can you send a link to a web site or something? What does it say?
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare
The mp3 is safe.
Quote from: revgms on August 25, 2011, 09:54:56 AM
If you don't have metaphysical claims, are you a religion?
We make no claims to anything "mystical", does that mean we are not a religion? Or is the concept of religiosity compatible with a community that is coherent through a shared world view?
Clearly these wackos are a religion that has a world view, but are we a world view that has religion?
I am not sure we are a religion, I also don't think Zen is a religion or Taoism, there is no "revelations" in them, it is all observational not esoteric offerings of a god-being.
I'm glad you said this. I've been having a tough time classifying Dudeism as a religion.
A philosophy I can buy.
I guess it could pass muster as some kind of eastern thing but it is not uptight enough to pass as true religion IMHO. But the fun of it is elevating slackerism and the dude character. Even if it has a passing resemblance to a religion in doing that I find a certain comfort in knowing he's out there.
A lot of the eastern stuff seems to indicate a sort of "god in the machine" thing. Within and without. Deism with some incense and chanting and stuff.
Quote from: meekon5 on August 25, 2011, 10:38:59 AM
Quote from: revgms on August 25, 2011, 10:13:53 AM
...The fellow who was on O'Riely, when Billy boy said "tide comes in tide goes out", was saying that a vast majority of Christians don't actually buy the shit the church is selling. But then you get the groups like these.
Unfortunately "Mob" psychology is very different from personal psychology, put a bunch of christians high on the love of god in a room together and their likely to start "sanctifying" anything they think is out of place (and causing a dreadful mess in the process).
A person is good. People are full of hatred and prejudice and capable of all sorts of nasty stuff.
Or
All things being equal, good people will do good and bad people will do bad. If you want good people to do bad you need religion.
Quote from: revgms on August 25, 2011, 11:02:40 AM
There are bad people claiming to be Christians who want to rule the world for Jeebus. Think Christian Taliban.
And many are running for office and finishing pretty high in the polls.
Talking 'bout a Revolution (yeah, yeah), here's some new shit :
https://occupywallst.org/
BTW: talking of the deity schmaltz, there's a great & extremely far out book written by the Professor Of Quantum Information Science at Oxford University, Vlatko Vedral called Decoding Reality ...
The premise of the book is that the fundamental fabric of reality is information & that "everything" is, some sense, "infomation".
Funny how he finishes the book with a quote from the Tao Te Ching ...
Quote from: Reverend Dog on August 25, 2011, 11:52:18 AM
BTW: talking of the deity schmaltz, there's a great & extremely far out book written by the Professor Of Quantum Information Science at Oxford University, Vlatko Vedral called Decoding Reality ...
The premise of the book is that the fundamental fabric of reality is information & that "everything" is, some sense, "infomation".
Funny how he finishes the book with a quote from the Tao Te Ching ...
The Hawking Paradox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox
It claims that information is lost in black holes. Which violates the most basic principles of the universe. I could be crude and mention Oprah Winfrey in support of the principle.
Yeah man, blows your fucking mind ...
"If you think you can talk about quantum theory without feeling dizzy, you haven't understood the first thing about it."
&
"Some subjects are so serious that one can only joke about them."
Niels Bohr - Quantum Dude
This is what happens when I go back to work, I miss two pages of discussion on some new shit :)
Much like Meekon, I'm as Brit who's down with global awareness, and it's hard not to be aware of the US. It always seems to be that we pay a lot of attention to our western cousins but the interest never quite reaches back across the pond in the same way :P
This sort of fundamentalism is, yes, quite scary, and this perhaps more so by the very fact that it's seeping into politics. In the UK, mentioning religious views in politics is a death sentence. Anyone remember when that nob-head Blair revealed he was a closet catholic? People are still gasping now, five years on ;D And yet, in the US, a man like Obama, who clearly isn't into the whole "god" thing, has to put in little phrases like "God bless America" and the like or he'll be run out of town.
I think the idea of insidious and forceful religions to be repugnant. I actually like Jehovah's Witnesses, because although they have to try and spread the word of their faith to you, they're not pushy, and fully accept if you politely tell them "no thank you" and will return with "have a nice day". They can be quite dude, as far as borderline sect-like fundamentalist go (I stress the borderline, there).
Yes, we dudes abide the beliefs of others, but we can certainly stand up and gawp at people who cross line like these guys obviously are. Religion, even Dudeism, should not take part in the rational world of politics (yes I said rational, and no, I'm not joking, I'm just aware than the reality of politics is heavily ironic) where we need to set aside those sorts of views and come together to work out things sociologically and economically. Of course, religion can be a good ethical guide, because no religions work on principals of negative ethics, but of course there are discrepancies between the outcomes of persuing those ethics (like the subject of abortion, to name one).
I'm certainly against religion and politics mingling, especially these sorts of far-right religious types, the same way I'd be about far-left religious types like the Hare Krishnas (even if I do love those guys) getting involved in the political world.
Still, we watch and wait and see what the votes say. Because, of course, unlike in the world of organised religion, you can always vote against the nutters if you can't abide them running your country :D
Quote from: Reverend Dog on August 25, 2011, 11:52:18 AM
BTW: talking of the deity schmaltz, there's a great & extremely far out book written by the Professor Of Quantum Information Science at Oxford University, Vlatko Vedral called Decoding Reality ...
The premise of the book is that the fundamental fabric of reality is information & that "everything" is, some sense, "infomation".
Funny how he finishes the book with a quote from the Tao Te Ching ...
Here you go: Skeptical Idealism 2.0
http://dudeism.com/smf/index.php?topic=847.0
Quote from: Reverend Dog on August 25, 2011, 02:23:28 PM
Hi BikerDude: Now here's a funny thing ...
Freddy Nietszche was actually considered to be a gentle wandering human by all those who came across him.
He, in fact, earned the name The Little Saint.
His whole philosophy was not based on nihilism(which he saw as the legacy of Christianity) but on how to go BEYOND nihilism.
He rebelled, in his way, against what he saw as the hypocrisy of Christianity & the 2000 years of culture that entailed. He also spoke very highly of both the Buddha & Epicurus (two of our dudely predecessors). & he brought fatalism (or Fuck It, Let's Go Bowling) back into philosophy where it had been hidden since the ancient Greeks.
I have always found his books to be joyful & humourous with a good healthy splash of sarcasm & it has been a shame that FN influenced both good & misguided thinkers but that is the nature of controversial & free thought.
I 've been reading him for years & have never felt the urge to piss on anyone's rug out of spite.
Yeah I've seen there is a real move afoot to distance Nietszche from Nihilism.
It's a tough sell for me. I mean it seems the basis of his philosophy is rooted in and arguably the foundation of Nihilism. It's the old question of the 2 nihilisms that this is all about.
Kierkegaard I could argue as warning about the inevitable dead end of nihilism but I can't really find the same deliverance for Nietszche
He says....
Quote
Among philosophers, Friedrich Nietzsche is most often associated with nihilism. For Nietzsche, there is no objective order or structure in the world except what we give it. Penetrating the fa?ades buttressing convictions, the nihilist discovers that all values are baseless and that reason is impotent. ?Every belief, every considering something-true,? Nietzsche writes, ?is necessarily false because there is simply no true world? (Will to Power [notes from 1883-1888]). For him, nihilism requires a radical repudiation of all imposed values and meaning: ?Nihilism is . . . not only the belief that everything deserves to perish; but one actually puts one?s shoulder to the plough; one destroys? (Will to Power).
It's true that he saw the outcome of this to be destructive. But I read it that he posited the destruction as inevitable and desirable. Akin to sweeping away illusion and misconception.
I read him as wishing that people could get over their delusions, especially Christian delusions.
For him it was a desirable inevitable outcome. The overturning of ridiculous foundations that we build upon.
His most basic precept was that life neither possesses nor lacks intrinsic value. It simply doesn't apply. Believing that a realization of that fact will result in destruction is immaterial IMHO.
If one believes that the foundations of human values are baseless in my opinion he's a nihilist.
Doesn't mean he's a bad guy. And hell he's probably right. Trouble is it's a dead end IMHO.
I tend to think differently, that Freddy saw the acceptance of life as-it-is, or as he saw it- Amor Fati, as the highest ideal. It was his Joyful Science, as he called philosophy.
He seemed to have been a man who was possessed by thought & had the guts to take that thought to the bitter end & run with it, without compromise & with the brazen bellowing of a lion tamer, not knowing where he'd end up.
He is, at the very least, a interesting cat to ponder.
Quote from: Reverend Dog on August 25, 2011, 03:41:48 PM
I tend to think differently, that Freddy saw the acceptance of life as-it-is, or as he saw it- Amor Fati, as the highest ideal. It was his Joyful Science, as he called philosophy.
He seemed to have been a man who was possessed by thought & had the guts to take that thought to the bitter end & run with it, without compromise & with the brazen bellowing of a lion tamer, not knowing where he'd end up.
He is, at the very least, a interesting cat to ponder.
Indeed.
You know I hate to do it but I have to. This all has caused me to get out my old text (yeah I a philosophy minor) and dig back into some of the Nietszche crud.
Nietszche did see Nihilism as an inevitable consequence of the flaws of christian morals and saw it as destructive of them and as such desirable.
Lets take a moment to take stock...
He believed that Human Altruism was impossible and everything is a will to power.
He believed that life has no intrinsic value and that Christian morals have no basis in the "real world" which led him to classify criminality as "rebellion" which is not to be punished but to be suppressed.
And as a substitute for our silly commitment to things like altruism and morality he suggested Das Ubermench(the superman) and the creation of new values which wouldn't have anything to do with the same old christian values.
And beyond that all life would be given meaning by how we advanced these new values in coming generations.
Ring a bell?
And where does this lead?
HITLER AND THE THIRD REICH OF COURSE.
Yeah "Old Freddy" was a hell of a guy.
Gimme a break.
I'll buy the epistomilogical argument that life may be without intrinsic meaning (although I don't agree with it) and I'll buy the necessity of reaching "the abyss" or Nausea or Nihilism in order to find <fill in the blank>. It's a common theme in most existentialism. Sartre, Camus etc...
But Neitche is a particularly loathsome individual who lived a life of physical sickness and depression living with his sister in a boarding house in constant pain and suffering while spewed a horrible brand of bile that was entirely a product of his condition.
I suggest that had he ever had a more "normal" life he might have found something resembling intrinsic value. Had he ever had children he certainly would have.
But that just like my opinion. IMHO he was a horrible individual.
We shall beg to differ on this point, BikerDude ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/articles/personalityandindividuality/morals.shtml
& I couldn't resist ...
http://dudespaper.com/great-dudes-in-history-nietzsche.html/
Anyway, enough of this philosophical mass-de-bating, I still think that empathy is the most important thing in truly giving to people ...