Is the Tao just a false positive?

[thevideoartist]

First let me say that I'm not seeking to criticize any system of belief but to understand.

I've been researching Taoism a lot and it's connections with Dudeism.  Seems most of us do somewhat uphold the idea of there being a "way" that the world works and that a natural order of things shouldn't be tampered with or improved upon in most circumstances because it is perfect and it is balanced.  In the Tao De Ching, it's described as being hidden, simple, and difficult to grasp, but can be partially understood through observation of its effects.

Now we as human beings are pattern-seeking primates.  Patterns help us stay alive because we learn what is safe and what is dangerous through this mechanism.  We touch a hot stove, it burns us, we learn not to touch the stove.  Some of these patterns are even instinctual, such as a nearly pervasive alarm when any of us sees a snake or spider next to us that we did not notice before.  Whether we're phobic of them or not, these are animals which presented a danger to our ancestors and hence our base-level response to encountering them is caution if not all-out terror.

We cannot turn this mechanism off though and find plenty of patterns that are completely unfounded.  Superstitions often are self-fulfilling examples of this, we hear that walking under a ladder is bad luck and maybe even experience something negative after walking under one ourselves and then avoid ladders, which logically have no effect on circumstances later in the day.  Several people use anecdotal evidence and personal experience to justify a pattern between vaccines and autism, in spite of statistical evidence to the contrary.  Casinos are another place where people find patterns that aren't really there.  The roulette table even posts the last 10-20 results in hopes someone will think that there is a "streak" or "lucky number" and be more likely to sit and play.  The truth is with a game like roulette, there is no way to predict a fair wheel.  The 00 could come up 20 times in a row and the next spin would still have a one in 37 chance of landing on 00.  You can flip a coin 10 times and get heads every time and the next flip would still be effectively 50/50.  Finding patterns and "streaks" in these circumstances means that your brain has created a false positive scenario because our brains, magnificent as they are, are easily fooled.

So given this information.  I'm starting to wonder when observing the world and looking for evidence of the Tao or the "Dude Way", how does one differentiate between how the world really works and the false positives our brain correlates on a regular basis?  Is the point just to continue observing and amending our understanding as we go in perpetuity?  Is the Tao just a metaphor or a conceptual koan we're meant to ponder to help curb our desire for meaning?  Or is it a tool for us to use to help make better decisions by recognizing the consequences of our choices and where they might lead us and those around us?  I am always questioning these things to determine to what extent they will help me abide and at what point they're just adding more ins and outs to decipher.

How do you dudes discern your own worldview from a false positive pattern?  Do you believe in a Tao and does that help you abide?

[bodhidharma]

It's Zen practice that does it fer me, dude - not a million miles from Taoism.
I reckon it all takes time tho' - and perseverance - just experiencin' life.
Take 'er easy
Dharma blessings

[thevideoartist]

It's Zen practice that does it fer me, dude - not a million miles from Taoism.
I reckon it all takes time tho' - and perseverance - just experiencin' life.
Take 'er easy
Dharma blessings

What does zen practice look like in your own life?

[bodhidharma]

Well - if I'm workin' I'm up at 0430 to sit for 30 minutes then clean me bits before leavin' fer work, Monday evenings I sit with (and occasionally lead) a Zen/Chan group here in Glastonbury UK, and do (on average) a day retreat each month.
That's the sittin' stuff - the key part is livin' it :
All is change.
What we perceive as "I" is just a bunch of characteristics without any fixed reality and simply an expression (among lots of expressions) of Reality.
No attachment - no vexation!
Dharma blessings dude

[BikerDude]

Are we so confident in our compasses that we can be sure what is false and what is positive?
Maybe the tao teaches us to lose such meaningless labels and find our own true north star as our guide with no expectation that it leads to anything that in any real sense can be called true or positive outside our own foot prints.
Holy shit that may be the most hippie shit I've ever said.

[Jianblade]

Well, the thing about the Tao is that it encompasses all things, both natural and what we perceive to be unnatural (such as false positive connections we make in our head). The point isn't really to look for "evidence" of the Tao, but to simply flow with it as you move through the life.

Taoism isn't really looking for things that fit your worldview, it's more like accepting all things as they happen (This is sorta where Taoism and Buddhism overlap into Zen).

Is the point just to continue observing and amending our understanding as we go in perpetuity?  Is the Tao just a metaphor or a conceptual koan we're meant to ponder to help curb our desire for meaning?  Or is it a tool for us to use to help make better decisions by recognizing the consequences of our choices and where they might lead us and those around us?  I am always questioning these things to determine to what extent they will help me abide and at what point they're just adding more ins and outs to decipher.

How do you dudes discern your own worldview from a false positive pattern?  Do you believe in a Tao and does that help you abide?

It's kinda of all of the above, really. Taoism is like a river, which flows both to the right and to the left. You don't really 'follow' the Tao (the idea of following a figure or idea comes generally from Judeo-Christian thought, like when Christ asked his disciples to pick up the cross and follow him). Taoism isn't really concerned about "improving" oneself or making the "correct" decisions, it's more about recognizing that all things are a part of the same whole, even the things we perceive as good or bad are really one in the same. It isn't really about good v. evil or good decisions or bad decisions, it's about recognizing that all things come from the same source.

Or something like that....I donno.....

[Brother D]

What about the natural rule of sucession?.

I mean, there is always something or someone to fill a void, like if a tree falls in the forest, something is going to grow in it's place, or a species goes extinct, another will take over the habitat.

Things are as they are, because they are supposed to be that way, people will do what they do, whatever choice or change they make. As long as no harm is done, take it easy and abide.

You can call it the will of the gods or the force or the flow of tao, it's all the same. It's the how and why that'll bust your nut.

[BikerDude]

I think we are on the same page actually.
But the point is if all you say is true then how could the tao be a false positive?
Or more to the point why would it matter?
If it blows your hair back it's all good.
It's not true or false or right or wrong.
And that's cool...

Well, the thing about the Tao is that it encompasses all things, both natural and what we perceive to be unnatural (such as false positive connections we make in our head). The point isn't really to look for "evidence" of the Tao, but to simply flow with it as you move through the life.

Taoism isn't really looking for things that fit your worldview, it's more like accepting all things as they happen (This is sorta where Taoism and Buddhism overlap into Zen).

Is the point just to continue observing and amending our understanding as we go in perpetuity?  Is the Tao just a metaphor or a conceptual koan we're meant to ponder to help curb our desire for meaning?  Or is it a tool for us to use to help make better decisions by recognizing the consequences of our choices and where they might lead us and those around us?  I am always questioning these things to determine to what extent they will help me abide and at what point they're just adding more ins and outs to decipher.

How do you dudes discern your own worldview from a false positive pattern?  Do you believe in a Tao and does that help you abide?

It's kinda of all of the above, really. Taoism is like a river, which flows both to the right and to the left. You don't really 'follow' the Tao (the idea of following a figure or idea comes generally from Judeo-Christian thought, like when Christ asked his disciples to pick up the cross and follow him). Taoism isn't really concerned about "improving" oneself or making the "correct" decisions, it's more about recognizing that all things are a part of the same whole, even the things we perceive as good or bad are really one in the same. It isn't really about good v. evil or good decisions or bad decisions, it's about recognizing that all things come from the same source.

Or something like that....I donno.....

[thevideoartist]

WOW!  left for a couple days and there's ALL this good discussing going on.  Far out!

I think I get it... so the point isn't the patterns.  We aren't supposed to say "this is the Tao" and "This isn't the Tao"... It's letting go of controlling it, whatever it is.  So rather than appointing ourselves as the police of right and wrong we just recognize that both are a part of the way the world works.  If good conquered evil then eventually a new evil would arise to challenge the status quo of good and if evil oppresses good then eventually good will spread to balance it out again.  The only responsibility we have is to control the only thing which we can: ourselves.  We become mindful of imbalances in our life, places where we hold one thing as sacred and another as vile, places where we trip up on our own paradigms, and then we correct them in ourselves.  So is Wu-Wei a part of this too?  Seems like if this is the nature of the Tao then Wu-Wei is just acting without pre-conceived notions or an agenda?  The state of the uncarved block too... is that a representation of being wise by having a virginal mind?  One that hasn't learned the biases and prejudices of someone hardened and chipped away by experience?

So the Tao... it's not a pattern, it's acceptance of the falseness of the patterns we have invented... letting go of the patterns that aren't actually contributing to our lives?  Of relinquishing presupposition.

Far out dudes... thanks for lending me your rugs for a bit.  Things are tying together I think, unless I'm totally off here and someone else wants to jump in.

[ZenDudeist]

Don't have any new leads, but just wanted to say I am really enjoying reading this discussion.

[bodhidharma]

It is what it is, dudes.....ain't nothin' you can do to change the present.
Abide.

[Dairy Lama]

Do you believe in a Tao and does that help you abide?

Beliefs like this are just more trouble than they're worth.  Just stroll on with an open mind, look closely, and see what you can see.   The occasional ice-cream is of course helpful in enjoying the moment.   

[thevideoartist]

Do you believe in a Tao and does that help you abide?

Beliefs like this are just more trouble than they're worth.  Just stroll on with an open mind, look closely, and see what you can see.   The occasional ice-cream is of course helpful in enjoying the moment.   

I'm more and more inclined to agree.  It seems to me now that there are really two types of people in life: 

Those who are comfortable with and even hopeful even when presented with the gravity of that which they do not know or that which will remain unknown.

And...

[Jianblade]

I will say this....all this talking about the Tao is totally missing the point of it all in the first place ahahaha.

[Reverend Al]

I will say this....all this talking about the Tao is totally missing the point of it all in the first place ahahaha.