That pretty much sums it up...

[amogorilla77]

Christianity is supposed to follow the new testament, but religious fanatics love to pick from the old as well as the new. In the end after all the talk Jesus commanded his disciples to love no more no less. Yet you speak of religious intolerance as if it is what Jesus taught. If you are a Christian and you follow Jesus than in the end your calling is to love not to pick and choose what you want to follow and from what part of the Bible to follow it from, and calling someone a fanatic does not make them not real it is simply calling a spade a spade if anything we should be say religious fundamentalist fanatic.

Fanatic - a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.

Atheism- is a religion of disbelief regardless of how you define it. The coined term from the Bible is doubting Thomas someone who refuses to believe in anything unless they see it with their own eyes, and experience it first hand for themselves.

The idea of disbelief not motivating action is simply not true. People use disbelief to do whatever they want all the time. Grab a degreed professional to disprove a fact regardless if it is true then I don't have to worry about belief in it so I can do what I want. Manipulators of all kind use this trick all the time.

I will tell you what drives me crazy. People who believe that religion is what is destroying the world. secularism is what is destroying the world Religious fanatics use and abuse Their holy books to justify murder and mistreatment of others. secularist use atheism as a means of destroying the very planet they depend upon by undermining the sacredness of the world they live in. At least that is what I would say if I was a fanatic, but I am not. What I am is a realist with dreamer tendencies. My habit is not to say religious this, atheist that. Damn fundamentalist! No, Damn secularist! You need to see people for what we are people and all the flaws of us.
People who crave power amongst other things will cling to whatever works for them. Religion, Business, Secularism, Atheism,...etc. What ever they can get their hands on to get what they want. Ye old battle of good vs. evil my friend, and I am sure that these human pieces of paraquat enjoy laughing at us bonafide dudes realized and unrealized as we point at each other and argue the points as to why we are right and why everyone else is mistaken. Personally I believe in a God, but I won't know if I am right or wrong until I get to were I am going so until then, meeh.

[Hominid]

Atheism- is a religion of disbelief regardless of how you define it.

Saying that atheism is a belief is like saying baldness is a hairstyle.  Disbelief is not a belief, it is the absence of belief.  It's not a religion; it's not a lifestyle.  For example, someone makes the claim that a teapot is flying around the sun...  I do not believe that, but it doesn't define me as someone to be a disbeliever in teapots in space. If you're going to respond by saying "prove there isn't one", you have to realize that the burden of proof lies with the one making the extraordinary claim that something exists where there is no proof.  Teapots, gods, flying spaghetti monsters...

Regarding only following the new testament, THAT is picking and choosing what to follow.  Here's a good video to watch - it's not too long:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TasoRGeDHCc

[Masked Dude]

Sorry, but Matthew 5:17-21 and Hebrews 13:8 say that both Testaments are to be followed.

Yay for comparative religions courses.
(And strangely I've started on an article about the issue of OT & NT.)

[amogorilla77]

You should not be sorry my Dudely Masked Dude because you are correct Jesus does say that he is not there take away from the prophets or the laws but to fulfill the letter of the law which solidifies the prophets and established laws which he then goes on to explain those laws and how they are to be fulfilled, but how these laws are to be followed is what is important and what makes me say that Christians are to follow the new and not the old testament, and this is what I mean by selectively choosing something and making it to fit so that you can get what you want. Hebrews 13:8 Simply solidifies Christ as consistent. So I must concede the point of taking from both testaments, but if you try to apply an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth using old testament rules then you would be wrong and could not say you are following the teachings of Christ. I would very much like to read your article seeing as I too say Yay to comparative religion. :O)
The statement about selectively choosing was not directed at you. It was a side tangent supporting fact for my prior opinion.

To my Dudely Hominid I never said prove that their isn't one. I simply stated that I believed. I would never ask anyone to look at the world through my beer goggles unless it is to understand me as a person as I would do the same for them so that we could live in a mutual state of respect and harmony.   

Atheism is a religion, lifestyle, and a belief as it fits all these criteria   

lifestyle -the way in which a person or group lives. Atheist live in a state of belief in disbelief.

Religion - people always focus on this part (the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.)
•a particular system of faith (atheist have faith that nothing exist)&worship( people also get hung up on the word worship.)
•a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance. (atheist ascribe supreme importance that nothing exist the same as religious people ascribe supreme importance that something does.)

belief 1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.(people always focus on the last part as well)
•something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
Atheist have a firmly held opinion or conviction that nothing exist.

trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

I never said I choose to follow the New testament alone.I simply made a point that Christians living a Christly life should focus on how Christ lived which was with understanding, compassion, forgiveness, love not in a old testament punishment shall be doled upon you way because that is not the way that Christ said to live. I like to think that the thing we should focus on is openness and changeability. I would like to think I grow in a positive way with everything heard, seen, experienced, and I would hope that I am able to leave people in the same way I wish to grow. In goodness. I will checkout that vid Hominid. I am always game for knowledge.
In ending I wanted some help with this thought. Everyone believes in numbers, but no one can show you a number how is that different from a belief in God.The fact that this thing we have all come to believe in that no one can see, but it works couldn't that in itself be a possible proof in the miraculous, sacred, and unbelievable such as the possibility of a God,  Dragons, Unicorns, Magic, and the pot of gold at the end of rainbows just to lighten the mood and leave you with a sense of awe and wonder.

[Hominid]

Your entire first paragraph demonstrates the contradictory nature of the bible, proving that the bible is the best argument against itself.  IOW, properly interpreted with no pre-existing faith, the bible should make an atheist out of anyone reading it due to the massive volumes of contradictions.  If it doesn't then the reader is alread biased in their belief and value system, ignoring evidence and facts.

You still miss the point that non-belief IS NOT A BELIEF OR A RELIGION.  You need a primer in philosophy my friend  -  no insult intended; I went through this myself when de-constructing and examining why I believed in god and the bible.  I don't any more for reasons mentioned above.  And because I don't, I no longer struggle trying to patch together logical incongruities in my head.

Peace dude.  I like the beer goggle analogy.

[amogorilla77]

No my first paragraph tells you that what was is no longer what is. The word of God as I was taught is a living thing and all living things grow and change. You don't go arguing about laws that have expanded and grown to reflect the times in the court system. I don't hear arguments about how it was legal at one time to whip your wife for wrong doings in front of the court house on a Sunday as reason not to obey the laws of today. What the bible shows and what Jesus showed was that you don't mess with the law, but that doesn't mean that the laws can not change for the betterment of humanity as people grew to understand more the laws in the bible reflected that. It isn't contradiction it is growth. It is how the world works written for your perusal in a blast form the past still relevant today if you can bridge the gap of old thinking and bring it into the mind of today.

I am not going to touch the philosophy comment we both know that that statement won't stand
I don't think I miss the point about non-belief as not belief non-belief is in itself a belief. It is not my fault that atheism is itself a paradox and to get down to brass tax atheisms disbelief in God is because of its belief in the scientific method. So atheism is a belief, lifestyle, and a religion.This has really got my mind whirling. I hope the future holds many more cool exchanges as this one.
Thanks for the appreciation of the beer goggle analogy I almost went with rose colored glasses, but I decided to go with something I have experience with.   

[BikerDude]

No my first paragraph tells you that what was is no longer what is. The word of God as I was taught is a living thing and all living things grow and change. You don't go arguing about laws that have expanded and grown to reflect the times in the court system. I don't hear arguments about how it was legal at one time to whip your wife for wrong doings in front of the court house on a Sunday as reason not to obey the laws of today. What the bible shows and what Jesus showed was that you don't mess with the law, but that doesn't mean that the laws can not change for the betterment of humanity as people grew to understand more the laws in the bible reflected that. It isn't contradiction it is growth. It is how the world works written for your perusal in a blast form the past still relevant today if you can bridge the gap of old thinking and bring it into the mind of today.

I am not going to touch the philosophy comment we both know that that statement won't stand
I don't think I miss the point about non-belief as not belief non-belief is in itself a belief. It is not my fault that atheism is itself a paradox and to get down to brass tax atheisms disbelief in God is because of its belief in the scientific method. So atheism is a belief, lifestyle, and a religion.This has really got my mind whirling. I hope the future holds many more cool exchanges as this one.
Thanks for the appreciation of the beer goggle analogy I almost went with rose colored glasses, but I decided to go with something I have experience with.   

But the point is that they CHANGE THE LAWS.
Just saying that "the word of God" is a living thing does not make it so.
I have heard no such specific pronouncements from the Pope or anyone else.
The bible still says what it says and some people follow the words.
And there is no pronouncement that they are "Unchristian" for doing so.
The fact that in the last several decades we've seen things like an apology for murdering Galileo or the concession that maybe gays won't burn for eternity etc just highlights that it is only once the positions become untenable that they "live". And even then it is just a hand waving sort of concession that does not rise to the level of a "change".
IMO it is not enough to just pronounce something as a "living or changing word" if you don't actually change it.
If the laws state something that is exactly what they mean. And until someone challenges it that law can be prosecuted. It may lose in court and be struck down but the point is that at that point it will be gone. No longer written.
And I can't help but notice how much the very concept of a "living word of God" run contrary to the actual written words.

Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psalms

But the word of the Lord endures forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Peter

It goes on and on.
If there is one thing that the bible says very emphatically it is that "the word of God is Eternal".
Does the bible use the term "the living word"? Sure but the meaning is very much the oposite of what you are proposing.
For instance

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 412

The statement about non belief being a belief is pure non sense.
I don't believe in astrology. I have no replacement belief for it. One minus one is zero. It's not negative one.
Rejecting something that someone says is not a belief. I (and I believe 99.9999999% of the people in the world) would simply have no position about the existence of God if not for the claims by others that there is a God. My position is 100% in relation to the claims of others. It is not a belief in it's self. I do not replace God with some other belief. I just reject the claim.
A good number of Atheists actually dislike having any term for non belief. Which makes a valid point.
If I don't believe in Leprechauns I'm not a "Aleprechaunist". I'm just not delusional.

[Masked Dude]

You may not want to read the article. It's more about cherry picking based on OT vs NT.

I usually don't like to debate theists because I always end up getting blamed for things I haven't done or said. (Not just Christians, and in person I always say multiple times we shouldn't.) What I will say is this: I like the overall philosophy of many faiths. Help others because we can, defend those who can't, and don't cause unnecessary harm. It's the little things in all religions and the extreme whackjobs that mess them up.

I don't believe in your God, but I also don't believe in Brahma, Zeus, or the Wiccan pantheon. Saying my belief is that means your religion is anti-Zeus and anti-Brahma. It would mean you and I have thousands of religions.

However, I will defend and fight for your right to believe. I just won't support any religion making their holy books my law.
To me, that's how I try to be dudely.

[BikerDude]

What I will say is this: I like the overall philosophy of many faiths. Help others because we can, defend those who can't, and don't cause unnecessary harm. It's the little things in all religions and the extreme whackjobs that mess them up.

Well the trouble is if you remove all the "little things" from the Bible or the Koran that motivate "whack jobs" (I'd say strongest adherents) you wouldn't have enough left to fill the average daily newspaper.

[Masked Dude]

That's pretty much why I listed those 3 things.

[jgiffin]

Well the trouble is if you remove all the "little things" from the Bible or the Koran that motivate "whack jobs" (I'd say strongest adherents) you wouldn't have enough left to fill the average daily newspaper.

Turns out Thomas Jefferson undertook a similar project. It cuts the Bible down to a tidy 20 pages. See, http://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/files/docs/foundingdocs/Jefferson%20Bible.pdf for a compressed version or http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf for the original. Having waded through the Koran, my guess is it would receive similar treatment.

Edit: I didn't realize the "original" original was available from the Smithsonian's cite. http://americanhistory.si.edu/JeffersonBible/the-book/  It's pretty cool looking, and technically impressive, regardless of your substantive opinions.

[Masked Dude]

I got a copy of it. It's very good reading. I recommend it.

[BikerDude]

Well the trouble is if you remove all the "little things" from the Bible or the Koran that motivate "whack jobs" (I'd say strongest adherents) you wouldn't have enough left to fill the average daily newspaper.

Turns out Thomas Jefferson undertook a similar project. It cuts the Bible down to a tidy 20 pages. See, http://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/files/docs/foundingdocs/Jefferson%20Bible.pdf for a compressed version or http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf for the original. Having waded through the Koran, my guess is it would receive similar treatment.

Edit: I didn't realize the "original" original was available from the Smithsonian's cite. http://americanhistory.si.edu/JeffersonBible/the-book/  It's pretty cool looking, and technically impressive, regardless of your substantive opinions.

What!?
But how can that be since we all know that the country was founded on Christian principles and the founding fathers were devout believers?
I know I heard that on Fox News. Must be true. Right?

While I'm here I'll just deposit a few interesting videos..

Carl Sagan God: A Reassuring Fable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd4jTUF3CLo

And I can't resist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrqLV4yeiw&list=PL1DA0C8985FAE1C22

Bertrand Russell (Expresses the frustration with the typical lax definition of "Christian". After that a drag really)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKY2LIvH50

Some Stephen Fry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqibqD4fJZs

Good Old Penn Jillette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpNRw7snmGM

[jgiffin]

Well the trouble is if you remove all the "little things" from the Bible or the Koran that motivate "whack jobs" (I'd say strongest adherents) you wouldn't have enough left to fill the average daily newspaper.

Turns out Thomas Jefferson undertook a similar project. It cuts the Bible down to a tidy 20 pages. See, http://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/files/docs/foundingdocs/Jefferson%20Bible.pdf for a compressed version or http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf for the original. Having waded through the Koran, my guess is it would receive similar treatment.

Edit: I didn't realize the "original" original was available from the Smithsonian's cite. http://americanhistory.si.edu/JeffersonBible/the-book/  It's pretty cool looking, and technically impressive, regardless of your substantive opinions.

What!?
But how can that be since we all know that the country was founded on Christian principles and the founding fathers were devout believers?
I know I heard that on Fox News. Must be true. Right?

While I'm here I'll just deposit a few interesting videos..

Carl Sagan God: A Reassuring Fable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd4jTUF3CLo

And I can't resist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrqLV4yeiw&list=PL1DA0C8985FAE1C22

Bertrand Russell (Expresses the frustration with the typical lax definition of "Christian". After that a drag really)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKY2LIvH50

Some Stephen Fry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqibqD4fJZs

Good Old Penn Jillette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpNRw7snmGM

Oh man, I dig me some Bertrand. Seriously. Greatest philosopher of the modern age. The philo-posers after him spouted infinite pools of irrelevancies. I'm looking at you, Lewis, Wittgenstein, and Derrida...

[amogorilla77]

Biker Dude apologies if you thought I was ignoring our conversation. I was a groomsman at a good friends wedding and a party dude for the past 3 days and might I add that this isn't about me proving religion as right because I get the feeling that this is what it is turning into. My whole stand from the beginning was that you can't blame religion for what is broke and wrong in this world because it isn't the religion or the lack of religion that jacks up the world it is the smallness of people. Any how this will be the last I comment about this. As far as I can see you have been picking and choosing the bits that support your points just like the, to coin your terms whack jobs do. So to address the elephant I left in the room.
But the point is that they CHANGE THE LAWS.
It wasn't a they thing or it was a they thing. It was a Jesus thing and he did so at the behest of God so as to form the new covenant between God and humanity which gives us a shot at living our lives in a bigger and better way instead of a small and selfish way. Reading Hebrews all the way through will clarify and will show you why I say N.T. and WWJD over O.T. in the case of Christianity.

Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psalms
But the word of the Lord endures forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Peter These do nothing to support your fact of God's Law being unchangeable they just say what God says is an immutable fact for all eternity or the ultimate truth.

(Well the trouble is if you remove all the "little things" from the Bible or the Koran that motivate "whack jobs" (I'd say strongest adherents) you wouldn't have enough left to fill the average daily newspaper.)

The above statement if done would leave you with the strongest adherents which are the hardest to follow and which the Whack jobs do not follow. Jesus simplified it as his last command which was to Love one another as he has loved without condition.

The statement about non belief being a belief is pure non sense.

belief-trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

faith- complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

These are the definitions of faith and belief so are you telling me that you are not confident in your statements of non belief, because if so then you are correct my statement is pure nonsense, but if you are confident or certain in your statements of non belief then it is not my fault you fall under the parameters of paradox.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
I am proven mistaken and poorly spoken on the point of God's living word because the changing doesn't come from God's words, but from the human who hears His words and tests himself against them to see if he is truly living God's words or in his smallness. I humbly thank you brotha.

Masked Dude, I know the feeling and I to do not debate because I am in agreement with everything you said except were you get the whole someone is frying in fire and brimstone I get the added addendum of please seek professional help.
Hey Hominid I watched the video it seems his stand point isn't about N.T. or O.T., but his lack of faith that people who follow the Bible or any Holy book can be civil because of all the vengeance and horrid punishments done by God, on the orders of God, or in the name of God following what Jesus taught I think would help although he too did read just a snip it of the bible to support his claim as well. However it is a very strong and well made argument supported by the acts of fundamentalist everywhere. It's just, in my opinion, seems to me to be a case of the extremes the fundamentalist wrongly using the bible are one extreme and he is the other extreme that counter balances. I will check out the vids Jgiffin.