Poll: Support grows to legalize marijuana in New York

[Rev. Gary (revgms)]

Also you'd have to prove free will actually exists and that you are not actually making that argument as a function of determinism, you had no choice but to make that argument, because free will doesn't exist. That argument is an outcome of preconditioning.

[BikerDude]

But if your freedom comes with a bill for me, how is that free?

Mine doesn't.
Some people are a burden.
That is simply a fact. It always has been and always will be.
But that is a red herring.
The question is whether leaving people to their own devices amounts to more of a burden than deciding to micro manage people lives.
The reality is that if you could track to a dime the cost to you in actual dollars and cents the difference between a world where people are allowed to have large sodas and one where they aren't it wouldn't even amount to pennies.
So really it's not just one decision. The single decision doesn't add up to squat and the only way this sort of thinking amounts to anything real is if you stack more and more control on people. "Wear a seat belt." "Wear a helmet" "Don't smoke" bla bla bla.
What's next? A fat tax?
It's not worth it. You create an absurd Orwellian nightmare. Otherwise each little thing doesn't even amount to squat.
Banning large soft drinks wouldn't have lower our cost for health insurance one dime and the meager percentage of a penny that it might have saved the insurance companies would have gone in somebody else's pocket.

We're all being meant to feel lucky for crumbs while doctors and insurers get rich.
I reject that idea. It's not unreasonable that I should expect not to go into bankruptcy when I get sick and I shouldn't have to forgo such extravagant behavior (sarcasm) as having a fucking large soda or a fucking cigar every once in a while.

[Rev. Gary (revgms)]

What do you need that for Dude?

[meekon5]

I just think it's fantastic that it is being sensibly (and positively) discussed in the media at last.

You should see the bile things like the Times (UK Times) print about Holland and the fact they have legalised drugs.

[BikerDude]

I just think it's fantastic that it is being sensibly (and positively) discussed in the media at last.

You should see the bile things like the Times (UK Times) print about Holland and the fact they have legalised drugs.

They were doing that here for a while.
Eventually the lies become unsustainable.
Legalizing in Washington and Colorado takes a lot off the table. When a pundit makes claims and two entire states worth of people see right through the bullshit then credibility becomes and issue.
The reality is that every place where they legalize weed sees a decrease in use by youth users once the black market dies.
It's happened over and over.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/07/marijuana-usage-down-in-t_n_1865095.html

[jgiffin]

I thought about this when the recent news story broke about capturing the prime Mexican drug lord. Seems obvious enough that this guy's lieutenants are about to struggle for internal control of the cartel, while other gangs fight to capture some of its market share. If either and/or both are true, then some peoples are about to get shot-the-fuck-up, son.

Soooo, instead of spending billions capturing these guys why not legalize their product and cut their revenue sources out from under them? Nah, too damn sensible...

[Yeti]

Soooo, instead of spending billions capturing these guys why not legalize their product and cut their revenue sources out from under them? Nah, too damn sensible...

If anyone in power was willing to learn that lesson, they would have learned it 80 years ago.

[BikerDude]

I thought about this when the recent news story broke about capturing the prime Mexican drug lord. Seems obvious enough that this guy's lieutenants are about to struggle for internal control of the cartel, while other gangs fight to capture some of its market share. If either and/or both are true, then some peoples are about to get shot-the-fuck-up, son.

Soooo, instead of spending billions capturing these guys why not legalize their product and cut their revenue sources out from under them? Nah, too damn sensible...

I saw the news about that and the first thing that occurred to me is that it wouldn't slow down his operation one bit.
Where this is a ton of money to be made somebody will be doing whatever it takes.
Prohibition showed us that. The time of Gangsters.

[jgiffin]

True enough. In that same vein, I'm interested to see what happens to illegal weed sales in Colorado. If they decrease significantly, it would seem pretty good evidence that taking a supply-side approach to the drug trade is the best way to eliminate the criminal element.*




*Footnote: Of course, if you're opposed to the drug in principle, I suppose whether its being sold legally or illegally isn't really important. But, then again, you probably think the world was created 4000 years ago and Jeebus hid fossils in the sand to trick biologists. So, we don't really have much to talk about anyway.

[Yeti]

True enough. In that same vein, I'm interested to see what happens to illegal weed sales in Colorado. If they decrease significantly, it would seem pretty good evidence that taking a supply-side approach to the drug trade is the best way to eliminate the criminal element.*




*Footnote: Of course, if you're opposed to the drug in principle, I suppose whether its being sold legally or illegally isn't really important. But, then again, you probably think the world was created 4000 years ago and Jeebus hid fossils in the sand to trick biologists. So, we don't really have much to talk about anyway.

As a Coloradan, I can answer that for you...

There will be a black market because the legal supply (at least at the moment) is limited and it's taxed out the ass. Also, although it's easier to get in Denver than Starbucks, some smaller towns don't have shops yet. However, there has also been a major shift in law enforcement resources - instead of focusing on busting pot smokers and then forcing them to rat up on their dealers, they're now focusing all of their attention on the black market dealers (especially the ones who deal to kids and teens - that's become a hot law enforcement issue here), the smugglers and the cartels.

Also, every state law enforcement agent in the states bordering us are like rabid dogs right now - I haven't driven out of the state yet, but when I do I fully expect to be pulled over and fucked with by Johnny Law, just for having a Colorado plate on my car. That applies doubly to Nebraska and Kansas, but who the fuck wants to drive into Nebraska or Kansas?

All of this adds up to making life much more difficult for those who still want to sell pot (and especially harder drugs) illegally.

As a full-on supporter of legalization, it pisses me off when prohibitionists point to an issue like this as some sort of failure of legalization. Thriving black markets exist for untaxed cigarettes, booze, pharmaceuticals, you name it.

[Yeti]

On a related note, when will the Lebowski Fest be returning to Denver? Because, you know...

[jgiffin]

Excellent, please keep up the eye-witness reports, Yeti. Everything you said makes sense for a market in the nascent process of self-balancing. It will be very interesting to see how things adjust. Ideally, the other systems would adapt to legalization but, you're right, there's a shit-ton of people/agencies that want to see it fail for their own reasons.

I've smoked pot exactly once in eight years but, still, you can't help but see the futility and bad motives of this war on drugs.

[Rev. Gary (revgms)]

The US drug war, one of the worst ideas ever. Seriously, I'd love to have a few minutes reading through the history textbooks of the future, where they'll talk about what a huge waste of time, money and human potential the drug war was.

[jdurand]

Not a huge waste of time, a huge make-work project with the side benefit of keeping people in fear.

During the First Iraq War my wife and I went to Egypt to deliver a piece of medical equipment I had designed and train the people how to use/service it. 

When we got there, we saw the hospital (a major medical university) was in SERIOUS need of repair.  Cats roamed the halls to keep the rats down, people sleeping on the floor, lights so dim I had to use a flashlight to determine color codes of wires...

We asked them why they were buying this particular piece of expensive gear when it wasn't for any critical treatments.  They explained how this works... Egypt received a "humanitarian aide grant" that had strings attached.  The money could ONLY be used to buy equipment from a list of USA companies with political connections and low sales (a make work project for USA companies).  So, they ordered a couple of these machines because they could use ONE feature of it to monitor cardiac patients.  If it wasn't for that feature, they wouldn't have any need for these.

When we got back home I asked a friend who worked for one of the embassies in San Francisco.  He confirmed that's how the make work projects function and that I wasn't supposed to know about that.

[Ron]

The US drug war, one of the worst ideas ever. Seriously, I'd love to have a few minutes reading through the history textbooks of the future, where they'll talk about what a huge waste of time, money and human potential the drug war was.

\

Come on man, it gave the entire U.S. Southern Command a reason to exist. If it weren't for the war on drugs I would have had to spend those 4 years worth of my time in some hell hole like the Persian Gulf. I got to visit some great places like Cartegena and San Andrea Colombia, Salinas Ecuador, Montego Bay Jamaica, Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, St. Thomas (and a few not so great places like Rodman Panama and Puerto Quetzal Guatemala) and a shit ton of other places that would be remembered if I had not killed those brain cells while there. And all at tax payer expense.  And I got to see what 52 metric tons of cocaine looks like all in one place (pretty fucking amazing is what it looks like).

I think for an encore we should have a war on pornography. I will volunteer to fight that one as well.

Ron