When was Walter in Nam?

[biodegraded]

I'm sure this has been hashed before, but, surprisingly, I can't find much on it. So here goes.

I assume Walter never was in Nam at all. Certainly not in a combat role - at most maybe a postman or cook at a base far behind lines. It's possible, perhaps even probable, that he was never in the service at all. Or if he was, he was posted somewhere else in the world.

(I once had a boss drafted in the Navy and he was on a destroyer in the Mediterranian his whole time, playing cat n' mouse with Soviet subs and screwing whores at every port.)

But if Walter was/had been there, I was wondering what time frame his tour would have been. I can only use his references at Donny's eulogy for a guide, assuming he was contemporay with the battles he named if not a participant in them. So I googled them.

I was only 9 at the time, but I knew of Khe Sanh from my childhood. That was in '68 which was an overly eventful year in my life. Good start on my Walter question. Next I tried to look up Lan Doc or Lang Dok or other phonetic permutations. I came up blank on all of them. So I moved on to Hill 364. Turns out that was a bit outside Da Nang base, but apparently nothing much happened there except coitus. One dude who'd been there at the time referred to it as "the party hill". It's where you took your fucking lady friends.

So I'm left with: if Walter was ever in Nam at all, it was 68-69-ish. I'd be interested to hear what fellows wiser than I can provide.

Mark it eight, Dude

[DigitalBuddha]

I think it all comes down to Walter's character. That is to ask; was he honest (a bit radical, perhaps even crazy) or just a dreaming wanna bee? I believe he was in Nam because if he was just making up stories I think the Dude, having known him for years, would call him out on stories he knew were bullshit coming from Walter. That is, of course, assuming the Dude knew Walter rather well, which it appears that he did.

The Dude had no problem calling Walter out when he would begin to talk shit......

"Walter, come off it. You're not even fucking Jewish"

Also, at Donny's funeral, Walter seems to go into some detail about the battles he has been in........

"In your wisdom you took him, Lord. As you took so many bright flowering young men, at Khe San and Lan Doc and Hill 364"

And, his famous speech (more like a typical Walter outburst) in the Family Restaurant, indicates that he was there........

"Lady, I got buddies who died face- down in the muck so you and I could enjoy this family restaurant!"

So, yes, it does look like Walter had "some time out in the shit" as dude's who were in Nam often called it.

...the man in the black pajamas.

[Zen Dog]

Ipso facto,Walter was born in '49/'50. In '68 he would be 18/19.The average age of the troops. In '91 when the movie is set he is 41/42 which looks about right. I think he has been eating more In 'n' Out burgers than the Dude who is probably about the same age given his life time achievements etc.

[Zen Dog]

And another thing.If you weren't there,how can you challenge someone who was?

[biodegraded]

I think it all comes down to Walter's character. That is to ask; was he honest (a bit radical, perhaps even crazy) or just a dreaming wanna bee?

Indeed it does. In the entire movie we only have his report of his Nam experiences. How much is reasonably accurate and how much has been forgotten, exagerated, embelleshed or fabricated? But the constant references to his time in Nam leads me to the sentiment "he doth protest too much".

And another thing.If you weren't there,how can you challenge someone who was?

Just so. We know the Dude and Smokey didn't go, what with being COs and the Seattle Seven and all. We don't know what Donny's background is. But for what ever reasons, none of the other characters are in a position to challenge Walter and don't.

Walter seems to know his weapons, so he got exposure to that somewhere.

Total aside to hijack my own thread:
Were In 'n' Out burgers kosher? Walter was eating one.

"My Nahm iss Karl. Ich bin Expert."

[DigitalBuddha]

To keep it simple; I know of no reason to believe that Walter was not in Nam, and never rolled out naked.

[Stever]

To keep it simple; I know of no reason to believe that Walter was not in Nam, and never rolled out naked.

I have to agree with that,dude...I think Walter was there..maybe he has some shit wrong,but he could have gotten mixed up when he was dabbling in pacifism..

[caucasianjoe]

I can't think of any reason he wouldn't have been. Just because Hill 364 was called "Party Hill" or whatever doesn't mean there wasn't any fighting to take it in the first place. And as stated before, I bet The Dude would've called him out if he wasn't there.

[BikerDude]

You should start by looking at the person who the character was based on.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0587518/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milius

Milius didn't serve in Nam.
He volunteered and was rejected because of Asthma.
Take that as you will as far as the Walter Character goes.
Personally I think that Walter was in Nam. He's the real deal.
At least he had the hair to stand up for himself when the chips were down.
If the writers meant him to be a phoney they never showed it in the story line.
A nut yes but he did walk the walk in the end.

The Dude on the other hand was supposed to be something of a pacifist but only showed himself to be a pacifist when confronted by rug pissers and nihilists. Confronted by someone who he was sure he could take he said "cmon fucker". Like the old bald brother shamus.
Confronted by anything more he folded like a piss soaked rug.
Typical hippie pussy. It's a philosophy when it's convenient.

[forumdude]

i disagree that the dude folded like a piss soaked rug when confronted by aggression. he was remarkably cool and collected while being attacked by the thugs and until the marmot started clawing at his johnson, he didn't show fear in the face of the nihilists. he talks back to virtually everyone who gives him shit. throwing punches around wouldn't have helped him against the cop or the thugs or the big lebowski or the nihilists.

truth is, most physical fights are best avoided. i dabbled in martial arts for several years (thai boxing, brazilian jiu jitsu, kick boxing, krav maga) and decided to stop because it made me more aggressive. suddenly i found myself nearly getting in fights because i wanted to test my new powers. i was going around wrestling with people who didn't want to be wrestled or thrown into arm-bars. i think if you live in a dangerous neighborhood or in medieval japan then being a "warrior" would come in handy. but even if the dude were adept at anything more aggressive than tai chi, he wouldn't have improved his situation one iota.

moreover if walter had just given a few bucks to the dipshits he wouldn't have gotten stabbed or lost donny. one could argue that the nihilists had been taught a lesson and wouldn't so easily pick on unarmed saps. we had a similar discussion before about this of course. i think the scene is telling because it's not so cut and dry. one definitely feels a sense of pride in walter's dispatching of the dipshits, but one might argue that that emotional reaction (which every action movie preys upon) is a genetic anachronism. remember that before civilization some 50 percent of men died in combat with other tribes because of this testosterone fueled mania. may have been necessary then, but now it's responsible for a shitload of misery and bad decisions.

furthermore, let's not confuse real hippies with fashionista hippies. the real hippies were brave souls who stood up to their government in a way that is sorely lacking today. the dude and his ilk tried to make a difference. the fact that they failed (partially) is not testament to their weakness. it's a testament to the unlimited resources of the powers that be and the seduction of creature comforts and status. which the dude bravely eschews. it is a watered down and weakened form of heroism, but it's the only one within reach. The same conclusion was reached by Voltaire in Candide. You're never going to beat city hall. So tend to your own little garden party.

[rev-jaholbrook]

Nicely put.

[BikerDude]

i disagree that the dude folded like a piss soaked rug when confronted by aggression. he was remarkably cool and collected while being attacked by the thugs and until the marmot started clawing at his johnson, he didn't show fear in the face of the nihilists. he talks back to virtually everyone who gives him shit. throwing punches around wouldn't have helped him against the cop or the thugs or the big lebowski or the nihilists.

truth is, most physical fights are best avoided. i dabbled in martial arts for several years (thai boxing, brazilian jiu jitsu, kick boxing, krav maga) and decided to stop because it made me more aggressive. suddenly i found myself nearly getting in fights because i wanted to test my new powers. i was going around wrestling with people who didn't want to be wrestled or thrown into arm-bars. i think if you live in a dangerous neighborhood or in medieval japan then being a "warrior" would come in handy. but even if the dude were adept at anything more aggressive than tai chi, he wouldn't have improved his situation one iota.

moreover if walter had just given a few bucks to the dipshits he wouldn't have gotten stabbed or lost donny. one could argue that the nihilists had been taught a lesson and wouldn't so easily pick on unarmed saps. we had a similar discussion before about this of course. i think the scene is telling because it's not so cut and dry. one definitely feels a sense of pride in walter's dispatching of the dipshits, but one might argue that that emotional reaction (which every action movie preys upon) is a genetic anachronism. remember that before civilization some 50 percent of men died in combat with other tribes because of this testosterone fueled mania. may have been necessary then, but now it's responsible for a shitload of misery and bad decisions.

furthermore, let's not confuse real hippies with fashionista hippies. the real hippies were brave souls who stood up to their government in a way that is sorely lacking today. the dude and his ilk tried to make a difference. the fact that they failed (partially) is not testament to their weakness. it's a testament to the unlimited resources of the powers that be and the seduction of creature comforts and status. which the dude bravely eschews. it is a watered down and weakened form of heroism, but it's the only one within reach. The same conclusion was reached by Voltaire in Candide. You're never going to beat city hall. So tend to your own little garden party.

He had his head stuffed into a toilet.
Had his personal living space invaded by Nihilists and his possessions destroyed.
He met with Jackie Treehorn who he knew had ordered the rug pissers and he treated him like a gentleman and he was willing to give his money to the Nihilists. He never once made any effort whatsoever to stand up for himself.
He consistently pussied out over and over.
Call it a philosophy if you like but as far as I'm concerned he's a hypocrite.
When dealing with a 15 year old he didn't shy away from threatening to cut off his Johnson and when dealing with a fat little brother shamus he was willing to fight.
It's only when he is in danger that he does as always. Pussies out.
If they had given money to the Nihilists they would have bled them dry.
they never would have left them alone. Those men are cowards Donnie.
Across this line you do not....
Avoiding a fight in a Bar with some wise ass is much different than taking it up with someone who enters your home and stuffs your face into the toilet.
There is no excuse except cowardice. Not philosophical or practical.
He was to afraid of getting hurt to take a stand for his own person and property.
I have no respect.

[forumdude]

yeah, he was a shithead when dealing with little larry. his nadir indeed.

but i disagree that he pussied out. you can't fight a cop, or three nihilists with an attack ferret. or with a sword. plus, it's not cool endangering others by starting a group fight. walter insisted they fight and donny and dude were obliged to do what they saw no need to do. and he couldn't win against the muscular thugs even if he was still holding the bowling ball.

bikerdude, you've got lots of good ideas but i just can't understand this machismo. it betrays your otherwise estimable record of logical, humanistic thinking. doesn't add up. why is it so important to engage in fisticuffs when there is nothing to be gained?

[BikerDude]

yeah, he was a shithead when dealing with little larry. his nadir indeed.

but i disagree that he pussied out. you can't fight a cop, or three nihilists with an attack ferret. or with a sword. plus, it's not cool endangering others by starting a group fight. walter insisted they fight and donny and dude were obliged to do what they saw no need to do. and he couldn't win against the muscular thugs even if he was still holding the bowling ball.

bikerdude, you've got lots of good ideas but i just can't understand this machismo. it betrays your otherwise estimable record of logical, humanistic thinking. doesn't add up. why is it so important to engage in fisticuffs when there is nothing to be gained?

Well that's your opinion.
I don't know when he was gonna fight a cop.
But you fight anyone who invades your personal residence. Period end of story.
It's not a question of winning or losing. Maybe one could make a case for giving money to a mugger.
But not the nihilists.
The Nihilists were all show. Anybody could see that.
If the only time a person is willing to fight is when they feel secure in winning they are nothing but a bully.
Just another type of coward.
You have to be willing to get your ass kicked from time to time fighting for yourself. It's the essence of being a man.
It's not just a pair of testicles.
This is not machismo. This is bottom line.
Beyond this point a person abdicates the right to absorb oxygen.
To act like the Dude in the face of danger is shameful.
I deny that this is in any way illogical. It is backed by a good deal of philosophical background.
For instance Socrates and Aristotle. The Greeks are pretty clear about it.
Read the republic.
And even beyond that I find it consistent with an aesthetic principle.
I don't believe that our attitudes about ourselves are arbitrary. Some things are innate. Like our expectations for genders. Yes they are influenced by society but as a general rule they remain pretty consistent. You just don't find societies where the women are the hunters and warriors. Aesthetically I find this kind of cowardice in a man disgusting. I simple find that a willingness to confront injustice is irreplaceable in the male character.
A lack of it is personally disgusting. It simply turns my stomach to see an example of such a "shadow of a man."
I feel that I stand on a long tradition of philosophical discourse when making that stand.

[forumdude]

in my opinion the whole movie was calling into question this received widsom of what makes a man. i think in this day and age pragmatism is what makes a man, not idealism.

i guess for me i think the notion of "principles" is an empty imperative unless it's based in reason. the tack you're taking on this seems to be rooted in romantic ideas of honor and identity. nothing wrong with that - your opinion is valued. i'm just trying to empathize here.

nothing wrong with standing your ground - that's exactly what socrates did when asked to repent for corrupting the youth of athens. but i think he would have acted just as the dude did when confronted with similar trifling (or impossible) situations.

the dude is certainly no exemplar of heroism. he's a hero of pragmatism. IMDO.