Islamic antics going too far: a look into our reaction to their reaction

[BikerDude]

I believe that Dudeism is both an 'empty vessel' that can be filled with the personal values of any particular dude and at the same time something that has its own independent if imperfectly defined vibe. As the French thinker Roland Barthes said it is both a 'readerly' and a 'writerly' text i.e. intention and meaning are both contained within it and projected onto it.

Within this here groovy dudeist community we find enough common dude-ground to link us together in a way that I think has a pretty cool combination of friendship and challenge.

I'm not really speaking about any specific religion.
Once one Deifies something it becomes a useful tool in the bag of tricks that all religions use. That is a self delusion that makes the believer feel better about themselves.
That's the candy that all Deist religions use.

And I personally find the "empty vessel" thing to be a big big problem.
To elevate something to a Deified status that is admittedly without any inherent virtue simply to be filled in later by whoever wishes to is exactly the sort of thing that allows religion to be what it is.
As quoted above. "All things being equal good men do good things, bad men do bad things but it takes religion to make good men do bad things"

[Boston Rockbury]

I'm not sure religion 'makes' people do anything. We might use it a justification for our actions but we are still responsible for our actions. What we do is our own choice. Also I don't think that a 'good person' can do 'bad things'. After all, we are defined by our actions. If you do bad things you are a bad person, religion or no religion.

[BikerDude]

I'm not sure religion 'makes' people do anything. We might use it a justification for our actions but we are still responsible for our actions. What we do is our own choice. Also I don't think that a 'good person' can do 'bad things'. After all, we are defined by our actions. If you do bad things you are a bad person, religion or no religion.

Or misled.
A good person can be acting on wrong beliefs.
We have reasons for what we do.
Those reasons are informed by beliefs.
If that is the case then all the Islamic terrorists are inherently bad people and Islam had nothing to do with it.
Clearly Islam had much to do with it.

Or the US soldier who went out riding his Tank around with "Jesus Kill Mohammed" spray painted on the side then blasted whoever shot at it with the cannon.
Do you suppose that he was criticised by his fellow troops or cheered?
Are they all inherently bad people?

In this day and age it is abundantly clear that Religion makes otherwise good people do a lot of bad things.
How about abortion doctor killings.
Just plain Bad people or damaged misled individuals?

[Boston Rockbury]

You can only be misled if you choose to follow.

[BikerDude]

You can only be misled if you choose to follow.

So then a child born is an Islamic country is making the choice to be islamic.
Despite the fact that everything he is ever taught is directly from Islam.
And he is explicitly taught that to not believe is the highest sin and punishable by death and that he has a responsibility to Jihad and Martydom etc...
I'm sorry I just don't see it.

The same holds true for kids born into fundamentalist Christian homes.
The problem is not as bad but you hear the same story over and over from them that they "just never saw that there was any choice".

And in the case of terrorism and things like killing abortion doctors the individuals believed they were doing "good" specifically because of the beliefs of the religion.

[Boston Rockbury]

Children usually don't have much choice. As adults we are responsible for our own actions.

[BikerDude]

Children usually don't have much choice. As adults we are responsible for our own actions.

And we raise our children to be adults and give them the reasons for the actions they choose.
And it's important to take note that most religions teach people that they don't have those choices.
that's the business of religion. Keeping your pimp hand strong.

[Boston Rockbury]

My father was a catholic. As a child I went to a catholic school.
Now I am an adult - and agnostic.
My choice.

[BikerDude]

Children usually don't have much choice. As adults we are responsible for our own actions.

Put on a tee shirt that says "Allah is a myth and being Gay is OK" and walk around Baghdad and get back to me.

[BikerDude]

My father was a catholic. As a child I went to a catholic school.
Now I am an adult - and agnostic.
My choice.

That was a pretty easy choice.
It's not so easy in a lot of places.
I doubt you faced the threat of death.

Even here. A person who leaves Mormanism in Utah faces social death, loss of employment etc etc.
and that's in the US.
Yes some people do but one can't put too much blame on those that don't.
One can't really just say that the person can choose. They can choose in spite of everything that they've been taught and in spite of major consequences

Religions explicitly raise people to believe that they don't have that choice.
I too came from a Catholic home.
A typical suburban Catholic country club home.
If I was not a catholic my parents would have been disappointed but they wouldn't have disowned me and they wouldn't have truly believed I was going to hell.
the reality is that that is not the norm. it is the exception.
for me the choice was easy.

[Boston Rockbury]

Yes some choices are difficult. My mother in law grew up in Nazi Germany. She chose not to wear the Hitler Youth uniform that was given to her and not to take part in rallies. A very difficult choice - with consequences. But the right one.

[BikerDude]

Yes some choices are difficult. My mother in law grew up in Nazi Germany. She chose not to wear the Hitler Youth uniform that was given to her and not to take part in rallies. A very difficult choice - with consequences. But the right one.

And if she had would that mean that she was a bad person?
I don't think that is necessarily the case.
Let's suppose the her parents really wanted her to.
And they were going to throw her out of the house if she didn't.

[Hominid]

A Muslim woman (who appeared once on stage once with the neo-atheism troup "Four Horsemen"), declared herself an atheist. She required police protection from her fellow Muslims, as she was under constant threat of death. People were moving out of her apartment building for fear of RPG attack.  And this is in the States!

So, for the few Muslims who have the intestinal fortitude to buck the system, they *know* their lives may be cut short.  Not a lot of choice in that environment, is there? All thanks to a 4th-century tribal religion.

[BikerDude]

A Muslim woman (who appeared once on stage once with the neo-atheism troup "Four Horsemen"), declared herself an atheist. She required police protection from her fellow Muslims, as she was under constant threat of death. People were moving out of her apartment building for fear of RPG attack.  And this is in the States!

So, for the few Muslims who have the intestinal fortitude to buck the system, they *know* their lives may be cut short.  Not a lot of choice in that environment, is there? All thanks to a 4th-century tribal religion.

But what about those who grow up true believers?
They do what 99.99999% of all people do.
that is to say that they believe what they are taught by their parents, teachers and their religion.
Are they necessarily evil for believing in what they were raised to believe?
Is there just some gene in parts of the middle east that causes people to blow up planes. No. It's religion.
Their religion explicitly teaches Jihad.

This same thing holds true for all kinds of things.
People here who are raised by bigots end up being bigots.

[Boston Rockbury]

There are plenty of choices for muslims other than public declarations of atheism. Good choices require good judgement.