So A kid walks into.....

[BikerDude]

..a gated community.
(Actually should say "A black kid walks into a gated community")
Minding his own business.
And ends up shot to death by a "Neighborhood watch" guy.
When interviewed, the neighbors point out that he is mystified how this could happen.
Says that people here are "good, church going people".
And he means it. He and his neighbors endeavor to live a good life.
And they do. Even the guy who did the shooting.

See here's the thing. As good as all those people act, their identity of "who they are" is as much driven by "who they aren't" as it is by what they perceive as good in themselves.
When they say they are "good churchgoing people" the implicit part is "not like the bad unholy people outside the gates". (Hence the "Neighborhood watch")

So how is it that educated successful people can end up with these kinds of attitudes simmering beneath their best intentions?
Lets assume that for the most part these are Christians with a smattering of Jews and maybe one or 2 families of some other religion. (I doubt Islamic though)
Meaning that they have faith in a "Personal God" that is a God who is real and who takes an active interest in everyone's life. For them their life is in service of God's will and as such they are rewarded by God. Which cannot be denied because I mean Cmon look at the nice cars and houses and what have you.
But the unspoken and 100% unavoidable conclusion is that those less fortunate clearly do not live in service of God and are not as rewarded.

This is the way the even moderate religion is insidious and the repository of 99% of what is really evil in societies that should have long ago gotten past stupidity like racial prejudice and other types of intolerance.
Can we possibly dismiss the divisive nature of religion from culpability?
When each week people congregate and reinforce their unity through the mass?
When they themselves claim to derive their meaning by immersing themselves in the language of intolerance?
When they all vow that
"every knee shall bend" and
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and

"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."


ETC ETC ETC ETC....
So when a black kid walks into a GATED community minding his own business and ends up shot dead does religion carry the blame...

For me yes absolutely.
It has done more to divide people and create pockets of hatred and paranoia than 1000 Hitlers, Stalins and every other hideous evil visited upon the human race.

EDIT
And I forgot to mention that this sort of view is also pretty common in the Black Community.
I know that Martin Luther King was a christian obviously but if all he did was preach we wouldn't even know his name. It was only once the issue was pressed and we had clashes in the street that any progress was made.
From an article on "Your Black News" website.
Note: I would disagree with his use of the term "Bad Theology" because I think it's just theology.
I don't think there is any good version. There is either
1.the Christianity used to "Civilize" the American Indians or taught by slave owners to black slaves
or
2.the version he refers to here as Bad Theology.

Bad theology teaches Blacks to just pray and wait for God to do things that they could and should do for themselves.

Bad theology teaches Blacks that it is God?s will for them to suffer.

Bad theology teaches and reinforces white supremacy and black inferiority.

Bad theology supported the European Slave Trade and the institution of Chattel Slavery in the U.S.

Bad theology endorsed apartheid in South Africa.

Bad theology endorses capitalism as God?s will and capitalism is built on the premise of keeping others poor while promoting a selfish, self-centered, greed motif ? the reason Wall Street collapsed, the reason millions of Blacks lost (or are losing) their homes, and the reason far too many Blacks are buying into a casino-capitalism theology or ?prosperity theology? where only the ?Bishops? prosper!

Bad theology promotes autonomy and not community. An ideology of ?Look out for Number One,? ?Survival of the fittest? and ?I?ve got mine. You?ve got yours to get? becomes the mantra of greedy people and the Old and New Testament teachings of caring for the neighbor, the needy and the vulnerable are ignored, thrown away or pooh-poohed!

In conclusion, it is the sinister and ignorant misuse of religion and sacred scripture that has oppressed and misguided African Americans and not the true teachings of Christianity, religion or the Black Church.  During the civil rights era, for example, religion empowered and bad theology did not dominate.

[Hoopdejoop]

I may be wandering into the middle of a movie theater here, but I don't hate on the Christians for their misguided ways.

Am I consistently embarrassed by their backwards proselytizing? Yes, as I grew up in a christian household, and feel that the actions of them reflect poorly on my upbringing and my dear mother.

Before finding dudeism, and thusly incorporating it into my life, I followed the teachings of The Jesus (the one from Nazareth, not the one who did six months in Chino for exposing himself to an 8-year old). Note, not the teachings of the prophets. Not the lessons from Paul the Apostle in his letters to the romans, or the Corinthians: Jesus of Nazareth. Now I may be fuzzy on my biblical liturgy, but it's my understanding that JoN had only two real rules. "Honor the lord your god", and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This Jesus wasn't trying to start a religion. He had one with...

(hmm, 3,000... add ten, subtract 2,000... fuck it)

At least 500 years of beautiful tradition, but they lost their way. The pharisees and the scribes had asserted too much control, and made too many rules. These holy-men of Judaism made a life-plan that was too complex, and so the plane crashed into the goddamn mountains. But the JoN came along and told people a simpler way. The Scribe and the Pharisee weren't bad men, but power and ruling had tainted their hearts, and they lost sight of their purpose of being shepherds for the flock that were the sons of Abraham.

These modern-day Christians have good ideas, they want to realize the kingdom of god on earth, and from what I've read, that sounds like a far-out place. But for too long, mankind, flawed as we are, has been trying to assume they know what the fuck they're talking about. They've thought too much, and felt too little. They've been afraid that they will lose relevancy in the world. And I can't blame them. There have been too many men and women who commit attrocities in the name of God. It's easy to them to assume that everyone who isn't with them is against them.

It's too easy for the atheist to act as the antitheist. subscribing to the notion of "US vs. THEM".
We are all human fucking beings, we are all creatures of one world that can unite and live together! We, the followers of the Dude way, we can expel hatred by diffusing it. It is hard, HARD work taking it easy and digging the styles of those we meet. But too often I see the people of this forum - men and women who have vowed to abide and take it easy; getting worked up and drawing lines in the sand.

When Dudeness is forgotten,
League bylaws and rules arise;
Then political advocacy and pornography are joined,
And standards fall regrettably.

When you can?t keep ?em down on the farm,
Then carjacking and Karl Hungus appear;
When the goddamn plane has crashed into the mountain,
Fucking fascists will take over the beach communities.

[BikerDude]

I may be wandering into the middle of a movie theater here, but I don't hate on the Christians for their misguided ways.

Am I consistently embarrassed by their backwards proselytizing? Yes, as I grew up in a christian household, and feel that the actions of them reflect poorly on my upbringing and my dear mother.

Before finding dudeism, and thusly incorporating it into my life, I followed the teachings of The Jesus (the one from Nazareth, not the one who did six months in Chino for exposing himself to an 8-year old). Note, not the teachings of the prophets. Not the lessons from Paul the Apostle in his letters to the romans, or the Corinthians: Jesus of Nazareth. Now I may be fuzzy on my biblical liturgy, but it's my understanding that JoN had only two real rules. "Honor the lord your god", and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This Jesus wasn't trying to start a religion. He had one with...

(hmm, 3,000... add ten, subtract 2,000... fuck it)

At least 500 years of beautiful tradition, but they lost their way. The pharisees and the scribes had asserted too much control, and made too many rules. These holy-men of Judaism made a life-plan that was too complex, and so the plane crashed into the goddamn mountains. But the JoN came along and told people a simpler way. The Scribe and the Pharisee weren't bad men, but power and ruling had tainted their hearts, and they lost sight of their purpose of being shepherds for the flock that were the sons of Abraham.

These modern-day Christians have good ideas, they want to realize the kingdom of god on earth, and from what I've read, that sounds like a far-out place. But for too long, mankind, flawed as we are, has been trying to assume they know what the fuck they're talking about. They've thought too much, and felt too little. They've been afraid that they will lose relevancy in the world. And I can't blame them. There have been too many men and women who commit attrocities in the name of God. It's easy to them to assume that everyone who isn't with them is against them.

It's too easy for the atheist to act as the antitheist. subscribing to the notion of "US vs. THEM".
We are all human fucking beings, we are all creatures of one world that can unite and live together! We, the followers of the Dude way, we can expel hatred by diffusing it. It is hard, HARD work taking it easy and digging the styles of those we meet. But too often I see the people of this forum - men and women who have vowed to abide and take it easy; getting worked up and drawing lines in the sand.

When Dudeness is forgotten,
League bylaws and rules arise;
Then political advocacy and pornography are joined,
And standards fall regrettably.

When you can?t keep ?em down on the farm,
Then carjacking and Karl Hungus appear;
When the goddamn plane has crashed into the mountain,
Fucking fascists will take over the beach communities.

So should we be cool with Nazis?
Suppose some Nazi's weren't down with the whole "kill the jews" thing and just dug the "positive" message for the aryan race?
Does that excuse the rest?

Fact is that it IMHO it is correct as a person who believes in all of the ideals that Dudeism supports to "push back" against the forces of intolerance.
This aggression will not stand. And the doctrine of Christianity (like Islam) is explicitly intolerant and vile by any reasonable interpretation. The bible explicitly supports slavery, genocide, stoning of unruly children, killing your neighbor if he does not observe the sabbath on and on.
And I have never seen any move to remove any of the offending passages. It's not like it's a book keeping error or they just haven't gotten around to fixing it in the last 2000 years.
It is only when it comes to religion that we are so conditioned to accept this sort of thing.
If a corporation or social club had as part of it's policies one that said something about "stoning unruly workers or members to death" it simply would not be enough to point out that "we don't really do that anymore". And the fact is that the book is filled with such vile stuff. Ideas have consequences.

I do not buy that "realizing the kingdom of God on earth" is anything but a monstrous belief. Especially when it involves wholesale genocide and murder. Which BTW in polls most Christians believe is a fact.
Most believe that Jesus is coming "soon" in reality and those who do not accept him will be punished.
That is across the board. Not just fundamentalist nut jobs.
Sure they leave it to Jesus or God but it does not change the fact that at the core of christian beliefs is the belief that every person MUST accept Jesus or he will be judged.
Even if a minority have a much more soft view and just buy the positive stuff it is like arguing about "the good things that Hitler did".

I don't believe in this pitting Atheism against Theism.
I don't even believe in the need for the word Atheism. We don't have a word for not believing in astrology. What we call Atheism is a reaction to other's claims and Dogma. Taking the position that the principles of National Socialism and the Nazi's are vile does not indicate an US 'vs' them position.

The goal is for all people to come together. And we would have gotten a lot closer if it were not for billions of people following religions that expressly disallow that sort of acceptance and IMHO encourage divisiveness and above all arrogance and unwarranted certainty 'ie' ignorance.
And although the "moderates" of these religions don't practice the literal interpretation the effects are evident all around us.

[BikerDude]

I like Dennett's "Break the Spell" take on things as a more "measured" indictment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WhQ8bSvcHQ

[HnauHnakrapunt]

And I have never seen any move to remove any of the offending passages. It's not like it's a book keeping error or they just haven't gotten around to fixing it in the last 2000 years.

Some guys tried to prepare so called Politically Correct Bible text but it was not circulated wide enough to change the basic version. Yes, when I was reading my 'uncut' Bible for the first time, I was sick. And I still do not like some passages. I try to think about it as a story of complicated human lives in the harsh conditions of a desert, nobody's perfect, man. That's the formal way to speak of it. Personally if I were given a choice between some passages from the Bible and a thriller movie, I would go for the thriller. At least here it states: not for children.