Moving Dudeism Forwards

[Reverend Al]

And surely DL knows what to do and where Dudeism should go, our debates are anyway useful, I guess, to help having ideas and such, and to clarify our train of thoughts and keep it limber.

Absolutely.  And if someone's train of thoughts gets sidetracked or goes completely off the rails, it's good to have compeers to put 'em back on a Dudely path.

perhaps the heisenberg principle applies: by trying to fix or fully undertand one aspect of dudeism, we lose all understanding of the other parts.

That's always a possibility and an important thing to be mindful of.  I prefer to think of if this way:  By attempting to fully understand one aspect of Dudeism, there's a chance that new shit will come to light on other aspects.  Still, there are so many aspects to Dudeism that we must remember not to focus on one aspect at the exclusion of all others.

[Andrea Da Fino]

No Sailing Dude, I'm not trying to judge anyone here.  But what would be your answer if someone asks you What is Dudeism and Who is a Dude?

Rev. Al, mark it 8. 

[Sailing Dude]

 I usually say I am a minister for the Church Of The Latter Day Dude and sence I'm 7th generation baptist and a medical pot smoker for my arthertis I say I'm christian with a take it easy message.  I'm almost 62 years old and am a owner and caretaker of a small apt complex after a long career of designing nuclear fuel and building power plants and have a great wife who insist I have long hair down my back and we sail on our 34 ft 3 state room catamaran named We Be Jammin . I play bluegrass music on the Dobro, Banjo Guitar, Bass. Most folks don't ask much more unless they want to be saved as a Dude. There's a lot of mormons you know The Church Of Latter Day Saints in my neighborhood so it's always fun to see the young missionaries faces when I say "take it easy is my message" it kind of takes the air out of there hard core sails pitch.

I've been thinking about doing weddings on our catamaran.

[Hominid]

Just my opinion - but, Christianity has nothing to do with Dudeism, which is Zen-based, so there is a very clear distinction between the two. Watering down your Christian stance to the point of saying you just "take it easy" will insult the rest of your Baptist dudes, dude. I used to be a fundie, and knew I had to reneg on its tenets, cause - like - it's all reactionary, dogmatic, judgmental, and super right-wing.  Watered-down Baptists are just that - watered down. Just like a watered-down anything - ain't worth shit to the founding fathers who sacrificed everything. Not to say they they were right - but they sacrificed everything to THINK their stance was THE ONLY stance...

Religion sucks big time.

Ooooh... did I type that out loud? Shoosh....

[DigitalBuddha]

Just my opinion - but, Christianity has nothing to do with Dudeism, which is Zen-based, so there is a very clear distinction between the two. Watering down your Christian stance to the point of saying you just "take it easy" will insult the rest of your Baptist dudes, dude. I used to be a fundie, and knew I had to reneg on its tenets, cause - like - it's all reactionary, dogmatic, judgmental, and super right-wing.  Watered-down Baptists are just that - watered down. Just like a watered-down anything - ain't worth shit to the founding fathers who sacrificed everything. Not to say they they were right - but they sacrificed everything to THINK their stance was THE ONLY stance...

Religion sucks big time.

Ooooh... did I type that out loud? Shoosh....

Well, this is just like my opinion, man, but as I said in another thread......

"There are dudes in just about every walk of life. We have Buddhist dudes, Pagan dudes, Christian dudes, Atheist dudes, Hindu dudes, etc. Dudeism is a thing of the inner person, of the heart, not restricted by a person's other righteous pursuits."

I think Dudeism is enhanced when there is input from all people; it is made stronger and with much more to offer when it is the child of a multitude of thought and experiences.

IMHO

[Rev. Ed C]

I don't think we can condemn religion out of hand, or based on any personal animosity (that's one of those things Dawkins does that makes me hate him so ).  It's true, from a modern, rational, freethinking perspective some religions hold some negative qualities, but each to their own.

We've always prided ourselves here, so I believe, on accepting the views of others, as long as they mesh with our own, and aren't being shoehorned in with our own.  I'm not a Christian, I don't have a problem with Christians, or Christian-Dudeists, but I will stand with those who want to keep unsuitable Christian Dogma from Dudeism's doors.

We like to pick and choose what others have already said that goes along with what we feel, so we incorporate aspects of a whole range of faiths here.  If religion was so awful, then our Taoist/Buddhists sides would be defunct and Dudeism would slump into that horrid movie-cult bubble that my original point was to try and step one or more feet out of.  If we're not a religion, we're just doing a damned good job of pretending to be one.  And, if we are, then we need to reach out our hands and join in with our spiritual compeers where we agree (Taosim, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Rastafarianism, Shinto etc...).  Let's not get hung up on what's WRONG with outher religions, but what's RIGHT with them

[Hominid]

Ooohhh I like stirring the pot...

Taoism is a philosophy, not a religion, so let's not water down Dudeism by saying "we're all in the same boat". Any person willing to claim themselves a Baptist (which is Christian BTW), or a Catholic for that matter, is doing so for one of two reasons: either they believe in the tenets of their faith, which directly contradict Dudeism, or they are doing so because it was their upbringing, their social culture, etc... they don't have a huge stake in it, but it's like - a comfortable label. Many don't even know the true history of their belief system; if they did, they'd puke. I point out the Spanish inquisition as an example... or the Baptists who burned the houses of others who weren't, like - Baptists! (I know my church history).

That's the distinction I was making. I stand by my observation that religion sucks. Just look at the zealots who use it as a convenient excuse to blow shit up. That, as opposed to Taoism, which is for the introspective, observant, calm, loving, caring person - no room in that approach to life to be hateful and blow shit up.

If you want to call yourself a Christian, then have the balls to be one, lock, stock, and barrel. Hate homos & lesbians, agree with infanticide, and send to hell anyone who disagrees with you. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe after you've labelled yourself; any religion by its very nature is exclusive, not inclusive, so by including all religions in Dudeism, you're contradicting yourself. Philosophy 101.

Taoism is a *thinking* person's philosophy. Religion is for either the zealots, or the lazy. Saying otherwise to sound all-encompassing and loving is not only short-sighted, it waters down Dudeism.  Again, there's a clear distinction between religion and philosophy. But if your philosophy is to say that all religions are OK, then you don't know religion...

M5 - you've studied this shit - am I wrong?

[Andrea Da Fino]

I usually say I am a minister for the Church Of The Latter Day Dude and sence I'm 7th generation baptist and a medical pot smoker for my arthertis I say I'm christian with a take it easy message.  I'm almost 62 years old and am a owner and caretaker of a small apt complex after a long career of designing nuclear fuel and building power plants and have a great wife who insist I have long hair down my back and we sail on our 34 ft 3 state room catamaran named We Be Jammin . I play bluegrass music on the Dobro, Banjo Guitar, Bass. Most folks don't ask much more unless they want to be saved as a Dude. There's a lot of mormons you know The Church Of Latter Day Saints in my neighborhood so it's always fun to see the young missionaries faces when I say "take it easy is my message" it kind of takes the air out of there hard core sails pitch.

I've been thinking about doing weddings on our catamaran.

Fucking A, Sailing Dude, that's pretty cool. That's really interesting, and mark it 8 about weddings on your catamaran, far out. I'm sure your interesting background, together with the long hair, will add a lot to our beach community. Far out again. 

[Andrea Da Fino]

DB, Rev. Ed, I think you both summarized the point. Far out or mark it 8.

Hominid Dude, I'm not m5, my beard is much shorter and I don't have his deep knowledge of philosophical stuff nevertheless I'd add my two cents. Imdo obviously. 

Your point is not missed, only that you say Christian when you should say something else. JCD just said be cool with others, what others did in his name it's another thing. I know it's like splitting hairs but we as Dudes try to look at things from an impartial point of view without judging others based on our beliefs but on reality. And reality is that JCD seems to have been a cool Dude while most of those who said and say that they are following his words are a bunch of reactionaries and nihilists. However we can't mix the two things. And also it's offensive for someone who's a Christian because he likes the original first draft of JCD to be mixed with Inquisition and similar assholes. Also, Taoism today is much different from original Taoism just like Buddhism, there is a kind of literal connection right?

The point is: Dudeism is a philosophical religion which going at the root of spirituality can be applied to everything or is Dudeism a philosophical atheist anti religious movement who is just against anything else?

Taoism is a philosophy but a philosophy can be applied to a religion, Dudeism is a philosophy, The Church of the Latter Day Dude is a church. For me they are the same thing much like a Shaolin Temple is based on Buddist philosophy; but that's just my opinion.

Sorry if I can't be clearer but I'm at my second evening beer. 

[Hominid]

DB, Rev. Ed, I think you both summarized the point. Far out or mark it 8.

Hominid Dude, I'm not m5, my beard is much shorter and I don't have his deep knowledge of philosophical stuff nevertheless I'd add my two cents. Imdo obviously. 

Your point is not missed, only that you say Christian when you should say something else. JCD just said be cool with others, what others did in his name it's another thing. I know it's like splitting hairs but we as Dudes try to look at things from an impartial point of view without judging others based on our beliefs but on reality. And reality is that JCD seems to have been a cool Dude while most of those who said and say that they are following his words are a bunch of reactionaries and nihilists. However we can't mix the two things. And also it's offensive for someone who's a Christian because he likes the original first draft of JCD to be mixed with Inquisition and similar assholes. Also, Taoism today is much different from original Taoism just like Buddhism, there is a kind of literal connection right?

The point is: Dudeism is a philosophical religion which going at the root of spirituality can be applied to everything or is Dudeism a philosophical atheist anti religious movement who is just against anything else?

Taoism is a philosophy but a philosophy can be applied to a religion, Dudeism is a philosophy, The Church of the Latter Day Dude is a church. For me they are the same thing much like a Shaolin Temple is based on Buddist philosophy; but that's just my opinion.

Sorry if I can't be clearer but I'm at my second evening beer. 

Andrea - Jesus did say to be cool, but he also espoused abuse and violence (John 2:12, Matthew 10:34). And, Christians follow the bible, which is chock full of rape, murder, infanticide, you name it - all ORDERED by God (see Judges 21:10-24). So if you call yourself a Christian, you are aligning yourself to the whole story, not just what you want to pick and choose. By doing that, you're creating another religion, another belief system.

I'm not claiming that Dudeism should be anti-religious - I'm saying Dudeism should not include religions that teach one to be REALLY undude.  It's a contradiction...

[Reverend Al]

I am most certainly an amateur when it comes to theological study.  But based on my observations and experiences with regards to the so-called "Western" religions, there is a difference between "religion" and "belief" or "faith".  What I mean by that is, "belief/faith" comes from what is gained from the teachings of their various deities, and "religion" is the rules and rituals established by each denomination that directs it's followers in the "proper" ways in which to honor those teachings and deities.  For example, one religion mandates their male followers cover their heads when entering a place of worship, while another mandates their male followers remove any head coverings, yet both are done as a gesture/symbol of respect for their deities???  And Catholicism...hoo boy, it's filled with rituals.  To quote the prophet Tom Lehrer:

"First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your Rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect and,
Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!"

"Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playing it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!"

Sounds exhaustiing.  And yet, I believe there are some worthwhile teachings in the Christian bible if you look hard enough, regardless of the fact that the modern day version is filled with some very un-Dude horrors (if taken literally), contradictions, and is missing several teachings that were omitted centuries ago because some uptight thinkers deemed them "unnecessary" (reincarnation, for example).

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that I think we should not dismiss any valid "beliefs" or "faiths" simply because we disagree with the "religion" that brings them to us; enlightenment is enlightenment regardless of the source or the messenger.  Of course, that's just, like, my opinion, man; I could be wrong.

[Hominid]

Rev Al: I like your point that religion and faith are two different things, in that religion is external, and faith/belief is internal. Important distinction. Religion does have ritual, but it is the FUNCTION of religion to teach its specific messages, contained in whatever sacred writings they adhere to, in addition to instructing their adherents to follow their leader's examples and teachings.  If you belong to religion "XYZ", then you gotta go to their church, follow their rules, and believe in their teachings. That's what religion *is*. That's why it sucks. And that's why I like how the Church of the Latter Day Dude is a parody of religion. Tickles my funny bone...

[Reverend Al]

Right on Hominid, definitely the right frame of reference.  What cracks me up is how all of the Christian denominations are allegedly teaching the same lessons from the same source, but if you don't practice "their" religion "their" way you won't make it into the finals.  Talk about splitting hairs!

[Andrea Da Fino]

Well Dudes your posts are very interesting. Actually I joined Dudeism because it has little rituals and it's not exhausting. Also it's pretty simple to remember even when drunk. Anyway, going back to the topic, the fact that two of the biggest world religions, Christianity and Buddhism, have so many interpretations and sects derives on one side from the durned human nature and on the other side that their original teachings are either complicated, or obscure, or so much loose that anyone can jump up and add another point of view. The other two great religions are probably so fundamentalist that going away from their written text interpretation is forbidden. They cut your johnson, sometimes literally.

Anyway they can be seen as trees grown from a root which now have hundreds leaves, what we are debating here is to find a way for Dudeism to stick to the root without going with the leaves hundred years from now. Also the beauty of Dudeism, except from accepting everyone who is a dude, is that if it finds a similar root it takes what is useful from it. We predate what's cool from every good source. Or better we recognize the dudely part of other religions, philosophy and spiritual paths. Also, even if the word religion makes some people uncomfortable we must keep in mind that religion has a kind of legal status and protection while philosophy and spirituality have not. And in this world of nihilists it's an inportant thing, imdo. Also words don't kill anyone, it's the human interpretation who kills.

Am I wrong?

[Andrea Da Fino]

DB, Rev. Ed, I think you both summarized the point. Far out or mark it 8.

Hominid Dude, I'm not m5, my beard is much shorter and I don't have his deep knowledge of philosophical stuff nevertheless I'd add my two cents. Imdo obviously. 

Your point is not missed, only that you say Christian when you should say something else. JCD just said be cool with others, what others did in his name it's another thing. I know it's like splitting hairs but we as Dudes try to look at things from an impartial point of view without judging others based on our beliefs but on reality. And reality is that JCD seems to have been a cool Dude while most of those who said and say that they are following his words are a bunch of reactionaries and nihilists. However we can't mix the two things. And also it's offensive for someone who's a Christian because he likes the original first draft of JCD to be mixed with Inquisition and similar assholes. Also, Taoism today is much different from original Taoism just like Buddhism, there is a kind of literal connection right?

The point is: Dudeism is a philosophical religion which going at the root of spirituality can be applied to everything or is Dudeism a philosophical atheist anti religious movement who is just against anything else?

Taoism is a philosophy but a philosophy can be applied to a religion, Dudeism is a philosophy, The Church of the Latter Day Dude is a church. For me they are the same thing much like a Shaolin Temple is based on Buddist philosophy; but that's just my opinion.

Sorry if I can't be clearer but I'm at my second evening beer. 

Andrea - Jesus did say to be cool, but he also espoused abuse and violence (John 2:12, Matthew 10:34). And, Christians follow the bible, which is chock full of rape, murder, infanticide, you name it - all ORDERED by God (see Judges 21:10-24). So if you call yourself a Christian, you are aligning yourself to the whole story, not just what you want to pick and choose. By doing that, you're creating another religion, another belief system.

I'm not claiming that Dudeism should be anti-religious - I'm saying Dudeism should not include religions that teach one to be REALLY undude.  It's a contradiction...

Well dude you're surely right when you say that Dudeism should not include religions undude, a mark it 8 assumption. But you're slightly wrong when you link the Bible to Christianity, they have nothing to do with each other. The Old Testament is one thing, Christ teachings are another, whatever zealots said and say. Also, from a balanced point of view we know that even Gospels are more or less wrong (Council of Nicaea transformed everything). I just think that we can't throw the baby with the water.

If we can accept that our Taoism is different from nowadays Taoism then I can't see why we can't accept that JCD is cool while the Bible and almost all other books are not. Also I agree that a big part of the men with a black, or red, pijamas are undude, but can we say the same of friars?

And, as regards Matthew 10:34 the fact that JCD was pacific doesn't makes him a sap.