BikerDude & revgms-

I concur, gents. Thank ye both.

All very sound, very Dudely points (and abidingly put); no,  not looking to codify although on re-reading some of my posts I may have given the impression that's what I was suggesting. Just kicking the shit-ball around for inspiration. Yes, I believe that the best way "forward' in the spirit of what I take to be Rev. Ed's initial intent is a  lessening/editing of the current Dudeist imagery to encourage would-be Dudes/Abidists to pull up a rug. Our (Dudeist) frame of reference, from Eds original post, is perhaps what is turning people off. Now, personally, I couldn't give a tinker's cuss about derision - it is not an issue for me (I came to Dudeism via a link sent to me by someone who thought it was funny - a gas; so did I. I had seen the film, years before and liked it - although the memory was hazy, but joined anyway - I  am not much of a joiner - before revisiting the film). So, I don't care if people laugh at the movement. I am also in favour of the organic way of evolution, in principal; have said on other posts that Dudes will find us when they are ready to find us. I couldn't care less about numbers, either - if there were only 20 of us I think it would still be fun. However, I am bothered about the impression given by the imagery of Dudeism being a single, white, males' hedonist/slacker club. I am perturbed, somewhat, by the fact that Ed reported that the imagery we utilize is still turning people off. I don't like that.

This is the main issue - I think the abidism album-sleeve is a cool (and Dudely) answer to the problem. We'd still sound the same  on the turntable. This 'answer' - if accepted - will create something of a vacuum, frame of reference-wise and there is another problem. I like the tree-imagery but, fuck it - I guess that's not important, right now. What is important, IMO, is that we acknowledge that there is an issue with the imagery. Thjat we are mis-representing ourselves and so excluding some righteous, cool fuckers from joining-in the fun.

So far, it seems that there is a slight acceptance that the Dude Vinci is a stumbling block but most Dudes want to keep it. Can we, perhaps, put the abidism issue on the back-burner, for awhile and maybe focus on the imagery question. I feel we are going around in circles (or maybe it's just me) and while I love circles - I tend to get dizzy pretty quickly.

I don't think there is an abcense of Dudeliness in these responses (far from it, every one is being very Dude); now we know that nothing in essence is going to change but I feel we must address the issue a little more pro-actively than just saying 'que sera -' or 'what would the Dude do?'. The Dude, IMO, wouldn't do anything because he wouldn't be in a club like this. If we are coming across, to potential Dudes, as sexist, 'slacker', hedonist what-have-yous (because of the imagery)then what - if anything - should we do about it? How should we go about it? I have already given my secific response: retire the imagery from official use and start coming up with some new designs. No one will be shunned for wearing a Dude Vince (or what have you) - but some new designs may help.

Perhaps, Rev Ed - you have some ideas on this - I feel we are at something of an impasse if we agree that there is an issue with the imagery but want to keep it anyway - don't know where to go from here, man. We got any ideas, shall we just say "fuck it"?

Well, I'm afraid my best thinking cap won't fit at the moment as i seem to have been struck with a large headache this evening, so I'll give just a few points that conrern me from the website.

The website is our flaship, its where we're always directing people to start their kinship with us, but I think it needs a little work.  The problem might be, I think, that much like the Forum and the Dudespaper, Olly runs them all but doesn't have the time to upkeep them as much as they might need to be.

Examples:

I log onto the main page of Dudeism.com, and what do I see at the top of my browser?
"Dudeism - Ordination by the religion of The Big Lebowski"
What does that say?  Are selling ourselves based on giving out ordinations for free, or that we're a religion based on a movie?

Luckily, if you click on "What is Dudeism?" it breaks down our wider view without mentioning Lebowski at all, and covers the gender issue of the term dude, so good plus point.  We possibly need to re-tailor a lot more of the site around this great formula.

Likewise, the Dudespaper is labelled at the top of the screen as being Lebowski lifestyle.  Surely something like a dudely lifestyle is more what we're about than being Lebwoski?  It's all in the images the words conjour up.  When you read it, what does it say to you?  When you ask a friend to read it, what does it say to them?  I know being on the inside gives me a much deeper insight than my other half has when she sees things like that (which puts her off, as someone who doesn't really identify with The Dude at all).

I guess it was her questioning of the supposed Lebowski-inspired philosophy that first inspired me to write articles.  It was certainly her question "can I be a Dude, even if I'm employed as an accountant?" question that caused me directly to start writing my article "Dudeciples & the Pan-Dudian Nation" about working not being against what it means to be a dude and how we all fit into society as dudes and how important it is to spread our dudeliness through all levels of society.

Anyway... I realise I'm rambling, and this headache is getting worse, so I'll leave that one little issue to snowball into bigger debate, for now.  I'm sure you all get the idea I'm very weakly trying to put across

[Apologies, I can't be bothered to spell-check this post.  It's uncompramised]

Cakes is right dudes...right here...on this forum...what we say and do here...is how everyone who comes to lurk will define what Dudeism is all about.
TBL and Lebowskist draw their attention...once interested to find out more they...like the rest of us...will end up at dudeism.com which is the filter...if they sign up, they will eventually make their way here to this forum. What we say and do Here is what Dudeism will be all about. And that will change as the makeup of this forum changes.
Dudeism will change as dudes come and go. It will grow organically just as we do.
If you wish to make a difference in Dudeism...this is where you do it.

I find what Meekon5 has posted on the thread very interesting.

I like that idea very much dude. I can't wait to see what more people have to say on the topic. I like the idea that no one has all the info, but collectively everyone has all the answers. Some cosmic stuff dude. I hope there are many volumes in our future.

wow. great ruminations fellas.

it is indeed my intention to move dudeism away from the lebowskian iconography at some point. i forgot that the web page says "the religion of lebowski" and the dudespaper says "the lebowski lifestyle." to be honest, that was purely for SEO reasons - to draw more traffic to the site. but it always felt like a sell-out and thanks to ed's prodding i will proceed to change it.

i'm curious as to what people might think of the idea of having various "sects" of dudeism. one thing i've long wanted to do is delve into the spiritual aspects of improvisational music. as a guitarist i thought it would be fun to start a sect of dudeism called "guitarism" but i don't know if people would think that would seem "franchizey" - which would make this whole thing look like a giant scheme of some sort. however, if people thought it might work (if done right) we could have guitarism and abideism and other isms as more specialized forms of dudeism. abideism might be a more "pure" form of dudeism, something akin to the way zen is a more pure form of buddhism (IMHO). and guitarism might be just for musicians or music aficionados.

i'm just concerned that adding subdivisions might muddy the message. it might be a hard thing to finesse without sabotaging the integrity of dudeism.  i'm already planning to start a purely academic institute for dudeist studies called "abide university." maybe that's enough of a spin off to bring in those who don't especially dig the lebowskian stuff.

what say you, esteemed compeers?

It looks like we are heading into some sort of a consensus that there are basically 3 philosophies going on here at pretty much the same time. Lebowskism...Dudeism...Abideism...and we pretty much have champions of each. (well...maybe not so much for Lebowskism? Any Lebowskist still here?) (BTW....I often jump from one to the other depending on the post and my mood.)

What we seem to be looking for is someway to express all 3 on the same forum without any one of them dominating the others, or turning away proponents of one of the other.
That could be a little tricky.


...another thought...articles on The Dudespaper are another way Dudeism is defined, I just have a problem with the "Comments" part of the Dudespaper. Is there anyway to link the comments to the forum? Spending most of my time here, I am rather lax in perusing both the articles and the comments regularly.
Maybe every time there is a new article on the dudespaper...a new topic can be created under the Dudespaper board heading. That way everyone on the forum will be able to read and comment if they wish. That would also serve to get more dudes to read the articles.
Just a thought.